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 USA is a De facto communist state
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  20:17:51  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  21:34:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
11. You

12. Really have to

13. learn to construct

14. message where your meaning,

15. if there is one, is able to be

16. determined by the casual reader

17. And it would be nice if

18. your topic title was stated so

19. to suggest some sort of discussion

20 may ensue.

etc.

John's just this guy, you know.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  21:51:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, these are the tenets of the communist manifesto.

www.reactor-core.org/communist-manifesto.html

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

This is currently being done in many cases. Such as the Kelo v New London supreme court decision. With many others before.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  22:45:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The US abolished slavery, too. That's a point you missed.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  10:01:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

The US abolished slavery, too. That's a point you missed.




Abolition of slavery is not a tenet of the Communist Manifesto. Although this is:

8. Equal obligation of all to work.

Another tenet expressed in todays America.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  11:40:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
If you're arguing that the above list-- which you mention below is from the communist manifesto-- somehow reflects the US, you're completely wrong.

For instance, in point (1), you can only find rare examples that conform to the government's right of eminent domain as laid out in the Constitution. Can you even begin to think that all of the rent that I currently pay is used for public purposes?

Similarly, point (3) obviously applies in no way to the US, nor points (4), (7), (8), (9). And other points only apply in the most superficial ways.
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  12:58:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cune,

point(3) inheritance "death" tax

point(4) drug laws and confiscation of property without due process

point(7) state subsidies and regulation

point(8) womens liberation social change caused most to become workers

point(9) sprawl laws and regulation of private property

Not overt but De facto


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  14:56:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your list is ridiculous. In many instances it's the way you phrase them that removes all merit from them. Here is my list of errors you made. This is only a partial list I invite others to add to:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Since when? All rents of land? You're saying that no one owns or rents land privately? If so it's utter hogwash. If not, please spell out what you do mean.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

You took this from an interpretation of the manifesto and not from the manifesto itself. Naughty, naughty with a tsk, tsk thrown in for good measure.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Again you say all as if to imply that it's an absolute which is laughable. You really think no one inherits anything which is what your statement so proudly implies. Well, that's just not true as almost anyone knows. An estate tax does not comfiscate every last penny. Show me that every penny is taken from every estate and I will concede this point. Good luck.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Since when? You'll have to show me this is true. All emigrants you say? Can you provide a list of everyone that's emigrated from the USA and show me that their property has been confiscated? The last time I looked, the USA invited foreign investment.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Have any of you applied for a credit card from the Federal Reserve? I didn't think so!
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state.

When I read this I laughed so hard I almost cried. What about the private airlines, railroads and Ma Bell? What about all the cell phone carriers? What about Greyhound? Private shipping interests? NASA isn't even a monopoly for space travel any more.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Dunno what this one is saying but it sounds like a sweet deal doesn't it? Cultivation of wasted land and improvement of the soil. Nice!
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Tell this to Paris Hilton. She'll really have something to cry about then! Does Archer Daniels Midland have an army now? I haven't seen it. Must be in Iraq.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

This has yet to happen. Most people still live on the coasts by a WIDE margin. It just makes sense.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

If this is in the manifesto, then fine. I see nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is just proper civilized behavior. Does the manifesto mention that murder is bad, too?

I just don't make sense of this 10 point list. It lacks the truthiness I had hoped for.

@



Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:15:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Cune,

point(3) inheritance "death" tax

point(4) drug laws and confiscation of property without due process

point(7) state subsidies and regulation

point(8) womens liberation social change caused most to become workers

point(9) sprawl laws and regulation of private property

Not overt but De facto
What?!? Perhaps you don't know what "de facto" means. Your argument that the estate tax somehow equates to "abolition to all rights of inheritance" is so utterly fatuous that it is hard to keep a straight face simply thinking about it. Similarly, equating "drug laws" to the "confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels" is an act the strains the limits of logic to the extreme.

Indeed, your entire argument is nothing but taking superficial similarities between the manifesto and rare instances from US law and claiming that this means that the US is a "de facto" communist state.

You really are a troll!
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:25:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What Cune said as well as, "You can't force a square peg into a round hole." Cherry picking your references to prove a point isn't honest.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:33:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I checked with them and the politburo said they do not want me to take part in this discussion…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:50:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Atomic, no those are statements taken directly from the communist manifesto written by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels written in 1848 under section II "PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS".

In fact is one reads the document it is clearly stated that these tenets will need to be done to varying degrees in different cultures. So, it is not intended to be exactly what the tenets state, only the ideas behind them.


In contrast to the U.S. Constitution and the original establishment of a republic, this nation is vastly closer to communism than republic.

Read each point and discern if our current government is closer to communism or free republic.


1. How much power does the government exercise over private property? What are the fees associated with "owning" property?





What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:57:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, I concede that one point was from the manifesto. However, I have no problem with a graduated income tax. Your argument that the US is more communist than republic is weak and by weak I mean really, really weak. You offer so little to support your claim.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  16:04:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cune, de facto means "being such in effect though not formally recognized"; from Websters, lest I be accused of plagiarizing the dictionary again.

The key is to examine the standards set by Marx and Engels and contrast them with the Republic set up at Americas founding.




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  16:21:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why compare Marx and Engel to America at its inception? The constitution was made elastic deliberately. America now is not the America it was. So why compare a theory to a country that no longer is? What real purpose is served to compare a theory to a thing that does not exist?

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  16:33:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Cune, de facto means "being such in effect though not formally recognized"; from Websters, lest I be accused of plagiarizing the dictionary again.

The key is to examine the standards set by Marx and Engels and contrast them with the Republic set up at Americas founding.
Thanks for the quote, though I'm aware of what "de facto" means. In no way whatsoever can any sane, rational person thing that the United States is "in effect" a communist nation. Your attempts at comparison fail even on superficial grounds.
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