Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Conspiracy Theories
 SELLING ROADS FOR PROFIT
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  20:15:29  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do you think about governments selling roads to private corporations as toll roads for profit.


www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4765129

"Under the lease, Spanish-Australian consortium Cintra-Macquarie would pay the state $3.8 billion up front and be responsible for operating and maintaining the highway. It would get to keep the toll revenue it collects."


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1266 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  11:24:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

What do you think about governments selling roads to private corporations as toll roads for profit.


www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4765129

"Under the lease, Spanish-Australian consortium Cintra-Macquarie would pay the state $3.8 billion up front and be responsible for operating and maintaining the highway. It would get to keep the toll revenue it collects."
I think it's a horrible idea. Privatizing toll roads can cause a horrible chain reaction of economic troubles.

By the way, JEROME DA GNOME, why did you put this in the Conspiracy Theories folder? Wouldn't this belong somewhere else, like Politics?
Go to Top of Page

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  11:33:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I think this is a miserable idea. For all the wonders of the free market and whatnot, there are some things best left in the hands of the government and not the private sector.
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  11:36:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I put it in conspiracy because it not widely publicized and is being done at an expanding rate around the country.

Tax payer roads (public property) are sold for the purpose of making a profit off the use of public property by the public.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:27:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I put it in conspiracy because it not widely publicized and is being done at an expanding rate around the country.

Tax payer roads (public property) are sold for the purpose of making a profit off the use of public property by the public.
Your assertion that selling roads isn't "widely publicized" is weak, considering that it has gotten about as much attention as one should expect from our media outlets. New Jersey's plan to sell or lease things like the NJ Turnpike has gotten plenty of attention. And NPR featured a story on it not long ago.

And while we might agree that it's a bad idea, I don't think it's a conspiracy. It should probably go under politics, as B10 noted...
Go to Top of Page

@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:35:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also find the privatization of roads to be a bad idea because taxpayers paid for them. If anything, selling the roads should be put up for a vote.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  15:53:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this only one more step towards ending national sovereignty and creating corporate government.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  17:02:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this only one more step towards ending national sovereignty


Huh? What does roads have to do with our nations sovereignty?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  19:28:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When the citizens assets are sold off to foreign corporations for personal profit, sovereignty will be hard to hold. Once foreign corporations have control of a large majority of state and federal highways, the citizen will need to rely outside of his nation to move about his nation.


The highway system is vital for both defense and commerce. With control of the transportation system in the hands of foreign entities sovereignty has been neutered.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  19:48:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I put it in conspiracy because it not widely publicized and is being done at an expanding rate around the country.
According to the article you linked to, the first public road lease occured in 2005, and the lease arrangement discussed in the article would have been the second time it had occured, a 100% increase in a year - up to last year. How much more has it increased since then?!
Tax payer roads (public property) are sold for the purpose of making a profit off the use of public property by the public.
How much difference does it being a lease and not a sale make? Especially in light of the fact that pulicly-owned lands are rented for private use - including profit -all the time. Cattle grazing, oil and mineral exploitation, rock concerts... you name it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  19:54:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave, 75 year and 100 year leases are de facto sales.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  20:28:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indiana
Texas
Illinois
Pennsylvania
New Jersey
Virginia
Delaware
California
Wisconsin
New York
Colorado
Florida

These states are or have publicly floated the idea of long term leasing of public highways.


http://jtf.janes.com/public/jtf/roads.shtml

Here is a link that shows its a worldwide phenomenon.

In fact the Council of State Governments proposes leasing state highways as a way to relieve financial stress.

www.csgeast.org/page.asp?id=weeklytrans46

States have several options for creating such a balanced financial framework according to the NGA:

• Tax-based strategies for increasing revenues.

• Toll and road-pricing schemes to raise revenues.

• Debt financing to reduce project development costs.

• Asset leases to raise revenues.

• Shifting transportation finance responsibilities to local governments.

• Strategies to reduce long-term growth in highway travel demand.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  20:29:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Dave, 75 year and 100 year leases are de facto sales.




No, they aren't.

At the end of the lease, they don't get the property.

Talk to Cuba about that one. They're really looking forward to getting Gitmo back. Another lease that we've released would be the Canal Zone.

That they are long term isn't surprizing. The next question you have to ask (and obviously, you didn't) is what are the terms of the lease and how is it broken.

I think we agree that this is a monumental cluster fuck by the government by privatizing the roads, but until I can examine the lease and it's terms I cannot really comment on how bad it truely is.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  20:34:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Indiana
Texas
Illinois
Pennsylvania
New Jersey
Virginia
Delaware
California
Wisconsin
New York
Colorado
Florida

These states are or have publicly floated the idea of long term leasing of public highways.


http://jtf.janes.com/public/jtf/roads.shtml

Here is a link that shows its a worldwide phenomenon.

In fact the Council of State Governments proposes leasing state highways as a way to relieve financial stress.

www.csgeast.org/page.asp?id=weeklytrans46

States have several options for creating such a balanced financial framework according to the NGA:

• Tax-based strategies for increasing revenues.

• Toll and road-pricing schemes to raise revenues.

• Debt financing to reduce project development costs.

• Asset leases to raise revenues.

• Shifting transportation finance responsibilities to local governments.

• Strategies to reduce long-term growth in highway travel demand.




And here in Illinois, that idea was shot down in flames as well as the ill concieved scheme of selling off the Illinois lottery to private ownership. Blagoivich has been trying to plug a $2 billion hole in the budget. He's gotten desperate because he doesn't want to raise taxes or cut spending for his new entitlement programs which I would like to kick his butt for implementing. When you have a 500 million dollar budget hole, you don't propose and pass comprehensive health insurance for all Illinois children regardless of economic background. It causes a bigger hole.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  20:48:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Valiant Dancer, the original lease was written with Columbia but rejected. Then Panama revolted from Columbia with the help of an American warship. The Panamanian treaty with America was forever and gave America full sovereign rights. Carter wrote a new treaty to give the canal zone to Panama in 1999.

The Cuban government currently considers the American base in Cuba illegal based on the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

Yes, by these examples you cited, 100 year leases are de facto sales.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  20:54:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Valiant Dancer, great to hear the people are standing up. But, has not Chicago leased long term a toll road to a foreign private corporation?



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.11 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000