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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:07:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, the process is nearing its end; and as the manifesto states the tenets are not exact. Without an overt statement that America is a communistic state, and with the tenets of communism being part of American law and culture, we have a de facto communist state. |
More goalpost-moving. In any case, it's clear that no "tenets of communism" are part of "American law and culture" so your argument that the evolution is "nearing its end" is false. Again, the current estate tax is not even remotely the same thing as the "abolition of all rights of inheritance." The only way you can get around that is to fudge with the statement that "the tenets are not exact." But no rational person can agree that the estate tax in the united states resembles in any way the "abolition of all rights of inheritance." As it currently stands, the tax only affects the richest 2% of estates, and even then it's a tax on fabulously wealthy estates; the bulk of the estate still goes on as an inheritance. So a billionaire who never bothered to use trusts and other loop-holes to shield his estate would still be able to pass on much of it to whomever he likes (unless he happens to die in 2010, when there is no estate tax). To claim that this is a de facto "abolition of all rights of inheritance" is to also state that you're either (a)insane, or (b) a troll. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/10/2007 08:08:50 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:16:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, I have yet to make a judgment on communism; and like many forms of government there are good ideas therein.
Halfmooner said "there are few parallels between that tract and actual "Communist" governments."
Have you seen China recently? America and China have been growing closer in function of government over many years.
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You mean by China becoming more free-wheelingly capitalistic than the US? Almost the only thing "Communist" about China is the continuing rule of their Communist Party. And that party's designed from Lenin's, Stalin's, and Mao's ideas, not from those in the Communist Manifesto.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:39:08 [Permalink]
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Cune, there are also state inheritance taxes.
The idea of any tax on inheritance is communistic. It is contrary to American Constitutional law.
Section 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Does your knowledge of inheritance tax conform with the constitutional mandate of uniform taxation or does it more conform with idea of removing rights of inheritance?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:46:06 [Permalink]
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Thank you Halfmooner, communism comes in many forms and does not have to exactly meet the standards of the manifesto to be communist; only the background ideas.
As to China becoming capitalistic; this is the process of finding the equilibrium within the ideas of corporate communism.
China is a more state controlled corporations form.
America is a more corporation controlled state form.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:51:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, there are also state inheritance taxes. |
 Lame. This is hardly the same thing as an abolition of all rights of inheritance.
The idea of any tax on inheritance is communistic. It is contrary to American Constitutional law.
Section 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Does your knowledge of inheritance tax conform with the constitutional mandate of uniform taxation or does it more conform with idea of removing rights of inheritance? |
It's a tax on one's estate when passed on to heirs. I hardly find it "communist" and I doubt seriously that you have the training in Constitutional law to argue that it's somehow against the Constitution. Can you cite how "shall be uniform throughout the United States" has been interpreted by the Supreme Court?
And again, can you name a single person in this country whose rights to inherit have been taken away? |
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 08:59:15 [Permalink]
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Cune, do you acknowledge that communism does not need to conform exactly to the manifesto?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 09:33:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, do you acknowledge that communism does not need to conform exactly to the manifesto? |
I grow weary of this tactic of yours. Obviously communism doesn't need to conform exactly to the manifesto. We've been over this before. But even allowing for some degree of variation, the economic and governmental system seen in the United States resembles in no way whatsoever anything that could reasonably be called "communist." |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 09:43:54 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote:| As to China becoming capitalistic; this is the process of finding the equilibrium within the ideas of corporate communism. |
Do you have any idea at all what those words mean?
Well, neither do I.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 09:46:55 [Permalink]
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Cune, you grow weary of defining you positions? I asked to prevent you from arguing its not exact therefore you are wrong. This allows you to reason on the question.
Does government has the right to force a sale of property from one private owner to another private to increase the government revenue?
Does America have a progressive income tax?
Does America government take property without due process?
Does America has a central banking system?
Does American government regulate communication and transportation?
Does American government regulate industry?
Do most adults work?
Does America have a free education system?
Cune, the answer to all these questions is yes. These are examples of a communistic state.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 09:53:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Jerome wrote:| As to China becoming capitalistic; this is the process of finding the equilibrium within the ideas of corporate communism. |
Do you have any idea at all what those words mean?
Well, neither do I.
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Sure, there is a worldwide societal change happening right now. It is very exciting to watch. It is the last great hope for mankind to rule itself. Corporate Communism.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 10:33:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does government has the right to force a sale of property from one private owner to another private to increase the government revenue?
Does America have a progressive income tax?
Does America government take property without due process?
Does America has a central banking system?
Does American government regulate communication and transportation?
Does American government regulate industry?
Do most adults work?
Does America have a free education system?
Cune, the answer to all these questions is yes. These are examples of a communistic state. |
But these aren't examples of a communist state. Or if they are, then the word "communist" is almost completely devoid of meaning since it applies to every major industrial nation on earth.
But I still reject your argument. In your initial list, you offered:
| 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state. |
But above, you ask:
| Does American government regulate communication and transportation? |
Are these the same thing? Not even close. Not even close! Even if we ignore specifics, the attempt to equate the two fails. But if we really look at the "means of communication and transport" in this country, it's clear that no one would describe them as "centralized."
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| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/10/2007 10:33:59 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 10:46:21 [Permalink]
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Cune, with this statement you are seeing the big picture.
"it applies to every major industrial nation on earth."
Cune, the power to regulate communication and transport in the hands of the state is the centralization of these things by the state.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 11:21:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, with this statement you are seeing the big picture.
"it applies to every major industrial nation on earth." |
Right. I am seeing that your arguments are "almost completely devoid of meaning." I'm glad we can agree on that.
| Cune, the power to regulate communication and transport in the hands of the state is the centralization of these things by the state. |
Just because you equate regulation with centralization doesn't make it so. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 11:32:50 [Permalink]
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Cune, one must look at the world picture as a whole. We are moving to a one world super state that will be corporate communism in its form. I am not judging this new societal structure, only pointing the facts out.
When the regulation control is centralized what its regulated is centralized.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
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USA is a De facto communist state
