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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:28:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Most, how many people can not? |
You made the claim, you back it up.
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This one is so easy as to be laughable.
| Nearly 47 million Americans, or 16 percent of the population, were without health insurance in 2005, the latest government data available |
NCHC
That means at least 84% can afford health care.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:36:48 [Permalink]
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| Since you questioned the need for insurance, using the rate of insured people to illustrate those who can afford healthcare is self-defeating to your point. People in Massachussetts are now forced to have insurance, surely an imposition upon their liberty, is it not? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:53:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Since you questioned the need for insurance, using the rate of insured people to illustrate those who can afford healthcare is self-defeating to your point. People in Massachussetts are now forced to have insurance, surely an imposition upon their liberty, is it not?
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You have been fully shown devoid of rational thinking in this context. The data once again shows your feeble attempt to obscure reality.
Yes, forced purchase of any product is an infringement of liberty.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 11:25:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
You have been fully shown devoid of rational thinking in this context. The data once again shows your feeble attempt to obscure reality. |
Asking for the data is an attempt to obscure reality? What a bizarre world you live in, Jerome.| Yes, forced purchase of any product is an infringement of liberty. |
So how many of those who are forced to purchase insurance could afford healthcare without it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 12:03:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
You have been fully shown devoid of rational thinking in this context. The data once again shows your feeble attempt to obscure reality. |
Asking for the data is an attempt to obscure reality? What a bizarre world you live in, Jerome.| Yes, forced purchase of any product is an infringement of liberty. |
So how many of those who are forced to purchase insurance could afford healthcare without it?
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These responses have little relation to what you quoted. I think I will allow you a break. 
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 12:51:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Ah, you concede the points. Okay.
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Dave, my daughter wants to know why you use your baby picture as an avatar.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 14:52:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, my daughter wants to know why you use your baby picture as an avatar. |
I lost a bet. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 10:16:24 [Permalink]
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I just saw the movie last night and thought it was pretty great. I also just read through this all and want to make some comments:
Val wrote:
| 1) It presents the abuses detailed as commonplace or the norm instead of the exception. |
Kil wrote a similar response to what I'm about to write. Including not only abuses within the health care system itself, but also the consequences of having no or insufficient health insurance, which has nothing to do with abuse of the system, but rather, serious flaws in the system, I can think of 7 people in my life who have been horrendously affected by our broken health care system. Since I'm young most of the people I'm thinking of are also young. People who are buried under thousands and thousands of dollars of student loan debt and trying desperately to get a good job, and then they get sick or injured, and all the sudden their lives are put on hold for years as they sink deeper and deeper into debt. When I didn't have health insurance for a couple years, I just didn't go to the doctor. Had a nasty gash on my knee and I treated it myself and ended up with a nasty scar, but it was better than more debt. The best and cheapest health care I ever got was while I worked in South Korea.
| US healthcare is definately screwed up, but not to the extent Moore would have us think. |
Bullshit. We are in the middle of a healthcare crisis in this country, and people are complacent for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is most Americans' utter ignorance of how our system compares to the rest of the world. I'm a working, educated married woman with excellent health care insurance (relative to other health insurance packages in the USA) and yet I live in terror of getting seriously ill. My parents have stable jobs and earn more than the average US family income, and they live in terror of getting seriously ill, and are quickly putting away as much savings as possible so that they will be better prepared for the inevitable. Everyone I know who has gotten ill has been set back not only because of their health, but financially, and for my friends who were very young and just at the beginnings of their careers, and for my friends who didn't make much money to begin with, those financial hardships were devastating – often worse than the illness itself. It is a double wammy to be set back in both ways, and that is just fucked up. And all signs show that things are just getting worse in this country. The system must change and good for Moore for making a film that upsets people. We should be upset.
Kil wrote: | But this really has no bearing on a single payer system. That is a whole other animal because it is not profit motivated. |
This for me, hits the nail on the head. Health care should not be up to the free market system. How much will you pay for your health or life? It is absurd to think that a system which forces people to answer this question on a regular basis could work. The most striking aspect of this film for me was watching the clip from the testimony from Dr. Linda Peeno: | I wish to begin by making a public confession: In the spring of 1987, as a physician, I |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 16:55:36 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
I can think of 7 people in my life who have been horrendously affected by our broken health care system. |
Anecdotal story's of people making bad personal decisions is not the way to make societal decisions. This is the kind of emotional response that causes bad choices. This level of thinking is barley elevated beyond that of primary school children. Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:05:02 [Permalink]
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Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement.
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Again, if you wish to end government subsidies to wealthy people first, I may go along with some of what you say. However, when the system is built to take from the poor to give to the wealthy, I think we need to correct for that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:11:11 [Permalink]
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| Anecdotal story's of people making bad personal decisions is not the way to make societal decisions. This is the kind of emotional response that causes bad choices. |
Way to take things in context, asshat. Were my entire argument based on anecdotal evidence that would be one thing, but that was a specific response to one line of something Val wrote, in addition to a response Kil had made.
| Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement. |
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You little fuckhead. I said my friends were young, not stoners leaching off their parents. One of them is my cousin who worked three jobs right out of college so she could get ahead, and is now in an executive level position at her job. But regardless of working her ass off since the day she left home (at age 18, fucko), her health insurance co-pays still wiped out her savings and set all her hard-earned life-plans back at least by 2 years. That, on top of how much being sick (she had some weird and sever form of iron deficiency) caused her to fall behind at work.
And people who need others are "whiners"? The help they cry for is "tripe"? If someone is uninsured or under-insured, it is their own fault because they just haven't grown up? You fucking, ignorant, self-absorbed, short-sighted ass. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:12:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement.
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Again, if you wish to end government subsidies to wealthy people first, I may go along with some of what you say. However, when the system is built to take from the poor to give to the wealthy, I think we need to correct for that.
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I agree wholeheartedly!
The government should not be used to transfer anyones profit from labor to another.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:18:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| Anecdotal story's of people making bad personal decisions is not the way to make societal decisions. This is the kind of emotional response that causes bad choices. |
Way to take things in context, asshat. Were my entire argument based on anecdotal evidence that would be one thing, but that was a specific response to one line of something Val wrote, in addition to a response Kil had made.
| Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement. |
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You little fuckhead. I said my friends were young, not stoners leaching off their parents. One of them is my cousin who worked three jobs right out of college so she could get ahead, and is now in an executive level position at her job. But regardless of working her ass off since the day she left home (at age 18, fucko), her health insurance co-pays still wiped out her savings and set all her hard-earned life-plans back at least by 2 years. That, on top of how much being sick (she had some weird and sever form of iron deficiency) caused her to fall behind at work.
And people who need others are "whiners"? The help they cry for is "tripe"? If someone is uninsured or under-insured, it is their own fault because they just haven't grown up? You fucking, ignorant, self-absorbed, short-sighted ass.
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Your thoughts are nothing less than the emotional response intentionally created by the propaganda that you choose to be subjected to.
When one looks at a horror movie one should expect to be terrified.
What is the difference between leaching off people one does not know and leaching off of ones parents?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Sicko
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