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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  18:56:24  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DEAD MEAT

The truth about dying in line for health care in Canada!




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:12:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some quotes from Canadian commentators about the movie:

I would actually have more and better care in the US. The US has some excellent cystic fibrosis programs and all of my American friends have a vest (google it - vest airway clearance system). None of my Canadian CF friends has a vest for their physio, because its deemed too expensive in Canada. The US also has a much better track record with cancer treatments some are not even covered in Canada and Canadians do die as a result.



We do not have access to free care in Canada, because we are heavily taxed and the system does not cover everything. The waits are terrible, people do sometimes die waiting, some important cancer treatments are not covered in some provinces, because we do not have a truly universal healthcare system, and 5 million Canadians are without a family doctor, so necessary for access to basic healthcare. Canadian healthcare is in a way like a giant HMO monopoly.


Sad system.

It is illegal to buy health care in Canada.

Animals get better care, as it is a free market.

Maybe Canada allows people to die as their cost of care would be too much. This is just speculation of course.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:27:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the U.S. allows people to die because the cost of care would be too much, so why not Canada?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:29:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Animals get better care, as it is a free market.
Some animals get better care, Jerome, if their owners can afford it. If not, if their owners are poor, then the animals stay sick and die.

Can you even try to understand why people would find such a system immoral when it comes to the health of human beings?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/23/2007 19:30:06
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:36:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Animals get better care, as it is a free market.
Some animals get better care, Jerome, if their owners can afford it. If not, if their owners are poor, then the animals stay sick and die.

Can you even try to understand why people would find such a system immoral when it comes to the health of human beings?





It is immoral to watch people die waiting in line.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:38:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, the U.S. allows people to die because the cost of care would be too much, so why not Canada?


You have the context wrong.

Canada forces people to die.

It is illegal to pay for your own health care.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:50:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, the U.S. allows people to die because the cost of care would be too much, so why not Canada?


You have the context wrong.

Canada forces people to die.

It is illegal to pay for your own health care.
Actually, if people can afford treatment they can probably afford the cost of a plane ticket to go to the US for treatment. Not the ideal solution certainly but very few (if any) people who can afford treatment die on waiting lists.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:50:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

You have the context wrong.

Canada forces people to die.

It is illegal to pay for your own health care.
The Mounties come and make sure you don't leave? Wow, that is harsh.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:58:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is immoral to watch people die waiting in line.
So that's the only part that bothers you? That they die in line waiting to be treated, instead of at home because they have no chance at ever getting treatment?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:58:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dv82matt

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, the U.S. allows people to die because the cost of care would be too much, so why not Canada?


You have the context wrong.

Canada forces people to die.

It is illegal to pay for your own health care.
Actually, if people can afford treatment they can probably afford the cost of a plane ticket to go to the US for treatment. Not the ideal solution certainly but very few (if any) people who can afford treatment die on waiting lists.



So, it seems inequity is actually enhanced in this system.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:02:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

You have the context wrong.

Canada forces people to die.

It is illegal to pay for your own health care.
The Mounties come and make sure you don't leave? Wow, that is harsh.


No, private health care can not be sold or purchased. You must get health care from the state or leave the state.

Do you think monopolies are good?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:03:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
So, it seems inequity is actually enhanced in this system.
Why do you say that?
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:03:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is immoral to watch people die waiting in line.
So that's the only part that bothers you? That they die in line waiting to be treated, instead of at home because they have no chance at ever getting treatment?




Wrong again. It is illegal in America for a hospital to turn away any patient regardless their ability to pay.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:09:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dv82matt

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
So, it seems inequity is actually enhanced in this system.
Why do you say that?


Those that have the means to procure health care outside of the state monopoly is a small percentage. In any society few can afford to travel long distances for health care. Americans system is by no means perfect; but one never has to wait months or years. All one needs to do is walk into any emergency room and they will be cared for before they leave.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:27:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Those that have the means to procure health care outside of the state monopoly is a small percentage. In any society few can afford to travel long distances for health care.
Travel is cheap compared to healthcare.
Americans system is by no means perfect; but one never has to wait months or years. All one needs to do is walk into any emergency room and they will be cared for before they leave.
We have emergency rooms in Canada too Jerome. But you don't go to the emergency room for hip replacements or cancer treatments.
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  21:39:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is not illegal to buy health care in Canada. It is perfectly legal for doctors operate outside the Medicare system. What is illegal is private health insurance. One again you are displaying your ignorance.

As to doctors leaving Canada because they can make more money in the US - I say good riddance. I don't want to trust my health to a greedhead whose primary reason for going into medicine was to make lots of money.

Just as Micheal Moore exaggerates the benefits of the Canadian system your sources exagerate the problems. Sure waiting times are often too long, but steps are being taken to fix this. In the Calgary health region the waitning time for hip and knee replacements has been reduced from 47 weeks to 4.7 weeks by improving efficiency in the public sector. This was achieved in a health region that is badly stressed by rapid population growth.

I wonder if Jerome believed that these statements from the "mouths of Candadians" actually represented the opinions of a majority of Canadians or if this was more of his trolling.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 07/23/2007 22:44:49
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