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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:58:38 [Permalink]
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Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?
This person seems very confused to me. It's not devotion to a set of symbols that engenders mass murder, and devotion to a symbol is not synonymous with nationalism.
Ultimately love of a country is love of the people that make up that country, and that's a good thing. This is true even when the government of that country does horrible things.
One of the reasons I love my country is that being a democracy, I have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process of my government, and love for my country is an important part of my motivation to be involved in this process. I can't imagine how removing, vilifying, or condemning the love I feel for my country could in any way be beneficial.
From Wikipedia:
Zinn's philosophy incorporates ideas from Marxism, anarchism, socialism, and social democracy. Since the 1960s, he has been active in the Civil Rights and anti-war movements in the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn
Hmm, so it follows that Zinn's ramblings would seem confused. |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 07/04/2007 12:09:36 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:31:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not believe in man made religion. |
Yet you read the Bible and follow it as a moral guide? Who are you trying to kid but yourself?
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I have read many books. I claimed the ten commandments as a moral guide. Man made religion is nothing more than a tool to control people.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:43:37 [Permalink]
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trollboy said:
Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:51:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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It is a debatable topic as to the evidence of the existence of God. There is not evidence to the contrary. The only honest stance with debatable evidence would be agnostic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:59:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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It is a debatable topic as to the evidence of the existence of God. There is not evidence to the contrary. The only honest stance with debatable evidence would be agnostic.
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Proving a negative is impossible.
Nice shifting the burden of proof. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 13:22:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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It is a debatable topic as to the evidence of the existence of God. There is not evidence to the contrary. The only honest stance with debatable evidence would be agnostic.
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Proving a negative is impossible.
Nice shifting the burden of proof.
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I did not claim the existence of God in this example. Therefore there is nothing I need to prove. Of course one can not prove a negative. That is why I stated agnostic is the only honest choice when there is debatable evidence.
The claim was made that anyone who believes in God is considered either insane or stupid. This is the claim that should be proven. Is it common in human society for one who believes in God to be deemed either insane or stupid?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 13:42:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Should we be agnostic about the tooth fairy, Jerome?
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No, because you have been told my those that made the story that it was a story. Proof!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 13:43:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Should we be agnostic about the tooth fairy, Jerome?
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Also, there is a lack of debatable evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 14:19:41 [Permalink]
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There is no "debatable evidence" for the existance of any diety Jerome.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 15:29:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
There is no "debatable evidence" for the existance of any diety Jerome.
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Do you have scientific confirmation that life happened by accident?
If it is in dispute that life could happen by accident, it is debatable that life happened by purpose.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 16:03:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Ricky
Should we be agnostic about the tooth fairy, Jerome?
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Also, there is a lack of debatable evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy.
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Make no mistake, the Tooth Fairy is alive and well at 1,000 fathoms.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 16:35:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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It is a debatable topic as to the evidence of the existence of God. There is not evidence to the contrary. The only honest stance with debatable evidence would be agnostic.
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Proving a negative is impossible.
Nice shifting the burden of proof.
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I guess I get as off-topic as anyone else, but I wonder how productive all this is. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 16:51:01 [Permalink]
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trollboy said:
Do you have scientific confirmation that life happened by accident?
If it is in dispute that life could happen by accident, it is debatable that life happened by purpose.
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Do you have any evidence that "life happened by purpose"?
Besides, it is not in dispute that life has entirely natural origins, except by the religious.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 18:48:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
There is no "debatable evidence" for the existance of any diety Jerome.
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Do you have scientific confirmation that life happened by accident?
If it is in dispute that life could happen by accident, it is debatable that life happened by purpose.
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Again, with your Creationist talking points! Anyone who buys the Creationist lie that science claims life and evolution are random or "accidental" events really should read Dawkins -- or any good basic biology text. Though random mutations are involved, overall, evolution is long-term building process that is the opposite of randomness. (Abiogenesis is a separate topic. Since science has not yet settled upon a consensus theory of abiogenisis, science can hardly be characterized as saying it was a random event.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Put Away the Flags
