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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2007 :  18:18:38  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Institute for Creation Research has published "Intelligent Design: Strengths, Weaknesses, and the Differences," a piece which, at its root, attempts to distance the ICR from the Discovery Institute's brand of creationism. But to do so, they make the utterly false claim that Intelligent Design is completely secular, and that the movement "scrupulously refuses to speculate on the identity of the designer. It is what it claims to be, strictly secular, seriously promoting better science and education."

Like with so many other facts, the ICR is required to ignore reality in order to promote its ideals.

Bets that Dembski and his cohorts will glom onto this piece as "proving" that ID has nothing to do with religion.

(Hattip to J-Dog at AtBC.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2007 :  18:37:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately, without a willingness to hypothesize about the identity of the designer(s) and his/their methods, ID can make no testable predictions, and thus fails to qualify as science even if remaining secular. Of course, we really don't need to worry about how many times ID proponents repeat the lie that ID has nothing to do with god, since the first instance ID suffers another setback, they'll be the same ones screaming "religious discrimination" at the top of their lungs. Their transparent duplicity fools no one but the rubes.

Remember, that was Judge Jones' conclusion: ID is both religion and not science. Smart guy.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/09/2007 18:40:34
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2007 :  03:42:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reassuring to note that Johnny D. hasn't lost his touch. A pity he's so windy, otherwise it'd be a good read in, perhaps, the vein of Moe Howard.

I'm sure that Dembski's little circus will be all over it -- what else do they have; evidence? Hah!

I must remind once again: ICR actually claims(ed) that a couple of it's members found a dinosaur's jaw in Alaska so fresh that it was all but bleeding. It was in a article on the site for a while, but today, if you are bored enough to want to read it, you must buy the book. I tried to find a link for it but could't. They might have gotten tired of ridicule and dropped it. I did, however, find this (scroll down):
Fresh Fossil Fallacy

Taylor also claims that not every dinosaur bone are all fossils. There are "fresh,” “frozen,” and “unfossilized” dinosaur bones found in Alaska according to Buddy Davis, a sculptor and a musician...or so it is claimed in this article. Buddy Davis, a musician and sculpture artisan, claims he allegedly found “frozen,” “fresh," “unfossilized” dinosaur bones with ligaments still attach to them in Alaska. The claim is nothing but a fraud. He must have mistaken the remains of ice age mammals, bison, or caribou as dinosaurs since the so-called fossils were found to have ligaments still attached to them like I said before. Davis says that they were found in the very top layer of where he dug the fossils at. He also claims to have found a jawbone of crested hadrosaur called Lambeosaurus, a plant-eating hadrosaurid dinosaur whose remains have been found in Alberta (Canada), Montana (USA), and Baja California (Mexico), but not in Alaska despite what Davis claims to have seen.
I'm pretty sure that this concerns the jaw in question.






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2007 :  06:13:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been waiting for them to go after each other in a big way.

Still waiting, but maybe it's heating up.....
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2007 :  18:03:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, thanks to The Panda's Thumb, I just read about this creationism poll, which shows white evangelicals having bad attitudes towards Ham's creation museum. Unfortunately, questions are worded badly, and the smart IDist will use the results to try to also demonstrate that ID beliefs (which are the same as theistic evolution in the poll) are held by more secular people than by avid church-goers.

It'll be interesting, over the next few days/weeks, to see if my predictions in this thread hold.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  08:34:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sal Cordova goes on the offensive against the ICR:
The ICR might do well to stop running their organization like a church, and more like a scientific enterprise. They might find they could actually be better evangelists by letting the facts have a more prominent place than their theology.
Not that Sal is capable of running an organization like a scientific enterprise...

ETA: HT to lkeithlu at AtBC.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  09:34:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Sal Cordova goes on the offensive against the ICR:
The ICR might do well to stop running their organization like a church, and more like a scientific enterprise. They might find they could actually be better evangelists by letting the facts have a more prominent place than their theology.
Not that Sal is capable of running an organization like a scientific enterprise...

ETA: HT to lkeithlu at AtBC.
I left a comment there. No idea if it will pass moderation:
Uh-oh. Scientists have been pretty clear in their position that ID isn't science, and now the Christians are speaking up and saying ID isn't even religion. So much for the umbrella strategy. There goes that deep-pocket support. I foresee a funding problem in ID's future. Everyone pony up.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  10:01:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope, my comment was rejected. My, my, how they do so detest honesty over there.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  10:17:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even more hilarious, earlier in that same thread Sal wrote:
That's fine. I expect I'll get a lot of opinions on this topic.

Speak freely.

regards,
Salvador
Yeah, right!

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/11/2007 10:18:36
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  15:18:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H. Humbert, UD is not exacly unknown for deleting comments and banning posters. I was banned from posting there some time last September(?). "Funnily" enough, a lot of banning seems to be down solely to the fact that some posts aren't ID-friendly enough. Or that someone has posted anti-ID stuff at other sites. In their defense, they can make their own rules for their own site, but given that one of the main objections they have against evolution is that "the establishment" refuses to have an open debate about (some) possible alternatives, I find their position slighly hypocritical.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  18:18:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, HH, I find your comment to be poking fun at them rather than trying to engage in discussion. I'm not in the least bit surprised it was rejected. It verges on what I would say is trolling, just trying to provoke more than anything else.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 07/11/2007 18:20:17
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  19:09:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, Hawks put things rather mildly. UD is rather famous for things like rejecting comments presenting evidence of evolution, and then having commenters asking why "evolutionists" can't seem to put forth any evidence. The "posting policy" is capricious and explicitly cruel (making fun of "chance worshippers" is specifically encouraged, if I remember correctly).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  19:59:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

To be honest, HH, I find your comment to be poking fun at them rather than trying to engage in discussion. I'm not in the least bit surprised it was rejected. It verges on what I would say is trolling, just trying to provoke more than anything else.
I think it was raising a legitimate problem, albeit in a slightly gloating manner. Still, how could I "engage them in discussion" if any criticism is banned? You know, if SFN operated by the same rules, Jerome would be unknown to users here. Yet we don't fear the Jerome's of the world, because we can actually answer any criticisms they can come up with.

And of course I was "poking fun." ID is a joke. That doesn't change the fact that they insulate their boot-lickers from reality. In fact, it proves it. And if by "trolling" you mean "refusing to acknowledge their long-running lies," then I'm guilty as charged. I prefer to think of it as simple honesty.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/11/2007 20:06:07
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  20:12:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Ricky

To be honest, HH, I find your comment to be poking fun at them rather than trying to engage in discussion. I'm not in the least bit surprised it was rejected. It verges on what I would say is trolling, just trying to provoke more than anything else.
I think it was raising a legitimate problem, albeit in a slightly gloating manner. Still, how could I "engage them in discussion" if any criticism is banned? You know, if SFN operated by the same rules, Jerome would be unknown to users here. Yet we don't fear the Jerome's of the world, because we can actually answer any criticisms they can come up with.

And of course I was "poking fun." ID is a joke. That doesn't change the fact that they insulate their boot-lickers from reality. In fact, it proves it. And if by "trolling" you mean "refusing to acknowledge their long-running lies," then I'm guilty as charged. I prefer to think of it as simple honesty.





Hey, thanks for using my name for something that I agree with.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  20:14:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought that HH's attempted posting raised a valid question, that any really thriving school of thought would be happy to answer -- if only to preserve their donor base.

But in the Discovery Institute's case, there really isn't a broad base of donors. There's really pretty much just wacky billionaire Howard Ahmanson, Jr., who keeps shoveling millions into that rathole. That's why ID doesn't disappear, despite being thoroughly discredited from all sides. Nothing needs to change, so long as Ahmanson's money keeps flowing in.

I find that opponents of ID seem to be constantly amazed that ID hasn't dried up and blown away, especially after its humiliation at Dover. The secret behind its paradoxical survival is simple: Ahmanson's millions. And this is a fact that DI would rather not talk about. Thus, HH's comments about funding hit a raw nerve.

Edited to add a link to this Salon article on Ahmanson.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/11/2007 23:02:45
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2007 :  05:31:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Coincidently, I read the very well done, Salon article a short while ago while researching something else. Ahmanson is a disciple of R.J. Rushdoony, a man well qualified for inclusion in my signature. It's worth knowing something about him:
Rousas John Rushdoony (25 April 1916 – 8 February 2001) was a Calvinist philosopher, historian, and theologian and is widely credited as the father of both Christian Reconstructionism and the modern homeschool movement.[1][2] His prolific writings have exerted considerable influence on the Christian right.[3]
The wiki link above goes into detail.

So, one might consider the prospect that Dembski's little dog & pony show is part of a much larger effort by the religious right, even though it has accomplished nothing other than to waste judicial time and attract deserved ridicule.

ID is dead. Unfortunately, Ahmanson might make it necessary to drive a stake through the heart of the corpse.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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