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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 00:27:20 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist (wedgie in your pants?).....
If you don't know what I'm talking about, I have obviously addressed the wrong person(s). I would like to know who the "we" and "us" are that you refer to in your delightfully polite responses to my request for opinions. Yes, I am writing a book, and you and others on this forum have given me some unusual material to "go on".
I am not writing in order to educate anyone, nor to persuade anyone of the existence or non-existence of anything. I simply asked for opinions regarding the "reality" of a certain subset of reports of anomalous phenomena. I believe you have answered my request as regards your opinion. If you would identify the rest of "us", I will address them individually. Thank you for your comment. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 00:37:05 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
Thank you for the referral to the essay on semantics. It was indeed relevant and informative. I have found your postings considerably more useful than many other rather misanthropic rants on this forum. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2007 : 01:01:09 [Permalink]
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bngbuck said:
I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.
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You are going to have to provide more data. Some links to these alleged sightings, or book references (title/author or ISBN number would suffice).
As for UFO sightings in general.... No doubt people see someting, from time to time, that they can't identify. In and of itself this is a meaningless observation. You saw something (figurative "you", you saying that you, personally, have seen anythinf) that you can't ID, so it is unidentified. This does not default to anything extratrestrial or supernatural, nor can such a claim be made without significant evidence.
So my opinion on UFOs is quite simple. You saw some flying object and you don't know what it was. So what? If you are claiming that what you saw was extraterestial, then you probably need to go have your head examined. And if you just saw a thing and you don't know what it was you saw... so what.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 01:34:32 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist (Wedgie in your pants?).....
I am not here to inform, argue with, or persuade you of anything. I asked for opinion and you have, by implication, given me yours. I am not trying to argue a case for or against any of the alleged phenomena that I have referred to. I have no interest in your or anyone's opinion about specific cases - only your broad opinion of a certain subset of the general class of UFO sightings - a subset that has passed certain musters. If you are doubtful that such cases exist, fine - that is the opinion that I was looking for. If you are not interested in the whole subject enough to spend an hour or two researching it, fine - that is another form of the answer I was requesting. I am not arguing for or against the existence of UFOs. I am merely gathering a cross section of various bright's opinions on the matter. And I am perfectly happy with the information you have provided me as to your position. As to the "we's" and "us's" you keep referring to, if you will enlighten me as to who these folks are, I will address them individually. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 01:42:21 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
Thank you for the referral to Mark Ramer's essay on semantics. I found it interesting and informative. Your posts are considerably more useful for my purposes than many of the somewhat misanthropic rants on this forum. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 04:36:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Cuneiformist (wedgie in your pants?)..... |
Not exactly-- but the cute comments in parentheses are a sure-fire way to win people over!
| If you don't know what I'm talking about, I have obviously addressed the wrong person(s). I would like to know who the "we" and "us" are that you refer to in your delightfully polite responses to my request for opinions. Yes, I am writing a book, and you and others on this forum have given me some unusual material to "go on". |
I have some general idea of what you are talking about. That is, I've heard of UFOs, and I have some vague recollection of reading somewhere that some group or groups of people have seen them in some fashion or other.
However, I don't recall specific incidents and so off the top of my head, any specific comments I gave you would probably be of little value. Indeed, it seems to me that just about any comments you get from this forum will be of little value. After all, there's hardly any frame of reference! So I don't ask to "satisfy my curiosity"; I ask so that I can give you an informed opinion on something you have in mind.
Ideally, you'd have some examples at hand that you might refer us to. I mean, if you're writing a book about some phenomenon that actually happened (e.g. "a large groups of ordinary people" seeing some UFO that is "NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory"), you'd ideally want to share with the reader soem real examples of that event! It seems that you aren't very far along in that part of your research.
Unfortunately, I am not willing to part with several hours of my time to search Google to give you an opinion on an event that may or may not be what you have in mind. So I guess I won't be participating in your research. Good luck with your book, though. Sounds like it will be a hit. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 04:39:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Cuneiformist (Wedgie in your pants?).....
I am not here to inform, argue with, or persuade you of anything. I asked for opinion and you have, by implication, given me yours. I am not trying to argue a case for or against any of the alleged phenomena that I have referred to. I have no interest in your or anyone's opinion about specific cases - only your broad opinion of a certain subset of the general class of UFO sightings - a subset that has passed certain musters. If you are doubtful that such cases exist, fine - that is the opinion that I was looking for. If you are not interested in the whole subject enough to spend an hour or two researching it, fine - that is another form of the answer I was requesting. I am not arguing for or against the existence of UFOs. I am merely gathering a cross section of various bright's opinions on the matter. And I am perfectly happy with the information you have provided me as to your position. As to the "we's" and "us's" you keep referring to, if you will enlighten me as to who these folks are, I will address them individually.
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Is there a reason you posted the same sentiment twice, an hour apart including the same childish joke referring to my forum name bngbuck (Bang for your $0.36?)? |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 04:59:19 [Permalink]
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Coeur D'Alene/Post Falls, Idaho. I can recall several years ago trying a Foster's Festival Ale made by the Coeur D'Alene Brewing Company. May have been a seasonal or a one time brew.
Enlisting skeptics to do some research. Well, you were honest about it. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 06:35:42 [Permalink]
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| lol, I like this bngbuck guy |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 08/07/2007 06:36:05 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 08:23:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ...
lol, I like this bngbuck guy |
What's to like? He opened the thread with a pretty vague request for opinions. He was asked to clarify his ambiguity, but rather than do that, he suggested the other participants should spend several hours sifting through tens of millions of Google hits. So he's apparently lazy, unwilling to take responsibility for the work necessary to accomplish the project he described.
He seems to take the position that there's some kind of legitimacy to certain UFO reports, yet when people reply as if that's the case, he gets all smarmy and insulting. Of course if that's not the position he's taking, then his communication skills are obviously deficient. And even if that isn't his position, he's refused to specify, even after being asked several times, which supposed UFO incidents are the subject of his concern.
He's obviously not very well informed, at least regarding the tangent elements of his subject matter. Of course he hasn't yet demonstrated that he's especially well informed about the particulars, either. He's a pretty lousy communicator. Then when people attempt to get him to clarify, in order to help him with his project, he treats them like shit. And you like this bngbuck guy. Okay. 
Some good advice for you bngbuck: If you come into a room seeking assistance from a group of strangers, then treat those strangers with disdain and contempt, you're not likely to be very productive in your quest. That's a pretty shitty way to deal with people, especially when it's you that has initiated the request for help. Now if you're actually interested in getting some useful assistance from these good folks, you might apologize for being a dickhead and offer some references to the "select UFO sightings" about which you are soliciting opinions.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 08:56:26 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, lol. I like his style |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 09:22:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Kil.....
I would say, in each case, that those people saw an unidentified flying object.
Thank you for the first post expressing an opinion that those people saw something real. I feel that this is genuine progress - to have a professed skeptic (albeit an evil one)admit that he/she felt that all was not hallucination, error or a non-event.
I feel my work today has been vindicated.
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You understand that my opinion is based on the criteria as you laid it out in your OP question and not any actual event. While you mentioned that there have been events of this nature, and I have heard of some of those anecdotally or as reported (and often sensationalized) by the by the media, I had to approach your question as a hypothetical since no actual identifiable source was presented.
No matter. If one person or a hundred people were to witness an event where a hoax, a hallucination or a positive identification has been “officially” ruled out then we simply must classify it as not explained or unidentified. “I don't know” is a legitimate position for a skeptic.
I think the “misanthropic” label you have placed on others who have posted in this thread is a bit unfair. There is a protocol to critical thinking related to the scientific method and one of the “rules” we go by is to ask for sources for evaluation when a claim to a fact has been made without a source provided by the claimant. That I regarded your question as hypothetical does not mean that they are wrong in calling for a source. Our research is almost constant and claims to facts are endless. Many of us just don't have the time to seek out information to support yet another claim and more importantly, it's not our job to do that.
Are skeptics a tough crowd? Well, yes. But my guess is that you wouldn't have come here in the first place if you didn't know that.
I have an interest in memory, eyewitness accounts and our ability to deceive ourselves. So I am not without interest in this discussion.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:46:28 [Permalink]
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I would say, in each case, that those people saw an unidentified flying object.
Thank you for the first post expressing an opinion that those people saw something real. I feel that this is genuine progress - to have a professed skeptic (albeit an evil one)admit that he/she felt that all was not hallucination, error or a non-event. |
It has been reported that when Venus is bright that the incidents of UFO reports increase. Many people have reported how a UFO was 'following' their car when actually the were observing Venus.
The only reason I point this out is because you think that because Kil said that some people who reported seeing UFOs did not hallucinate, that you think their observations were not in "error or a non-event". I would say that mistaking Venus for an alien craft is an error and a non-event event, even though the observer did see an unidentified (kinda) flying object.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 08/07/2007 11:47:26 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 12:13:47 [Permalink]
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GeeMack.....
Gee, mac, I must have upset you. Perhaps I can either exacerbate your distress or mollify it by parsing your little ad hominen diatribe. It really doesn't matter which one.
1.I opened the thread with a very specific request for opinion
on the UFO phenomenon-not opinions on specific instances
of UFO activity.
2.Not having asked for opinions on particular instances, I
suggested to those who seemed interested in individual
cases to go to a source of such material. I have already done
that work and have no interest in whether you do it or not.
3.I am interested in the legitimacy of the perception of
these events. I have yet to formulate an opinion on the
legitimacy of the events themselves. That opinion is not
relevant to the discussion.
4.If you find me ingratiating, so be it. One cannot be all
things to all people.I try only to insult those who insult me.
5.I agree that my communication skills are insufficient to
reach those who can't or won't listen.
6.The sum total of all UFO incidents that meet the criteria I
have specified, and the perception thereof, are the subject
of my concern. That is the point you and others fail to grasp
However, you have answered my request. Most of you
folks have little or no interest in the subject itself,rather
in specific examples to disect and agree or disagree with -
with an eye toward validation or discreditation of the
specific instance. This has value, of course, but it is not
what I am after. I am concerned with the general perception
of the credibility of UFO phenomena that exists in various
subdivisions of the general public. I have here learned a
great deal about the Skeptic Subdivision
7.I am reasonably well informed regarding the subject that I
am writing on. This forum has been very helpful in providing
a perspective of the professional skeptic and his perception
biases. Unfortunately, you persist in misunderstanding what
my subject matter is. I am NOT trying to make a case for or
against the credibility of UFO phenomena. I am studying and
writing on the subject of mass perception.
8.I plead guilty to being a poor communicator, if the only
clarification I can offer you is links to reports of one,
ten, or a hundred UFO sightings. I am gathering information
on the forest, not the trees.
9.Thank you for the advice. May I return the favor? When you
meet a stranger that asks for your opinion on a subject,
try to understand what the subject is before you give
your opinion. Then, proceed to trash him.
10.I have received a great deal of information from you
good folks, I have nothing to apologize for, I will not
hold my breath waiting for you to apologize for being
an asshole, as assholes seldom apologize for anything,
and all the references to "select UFO sightings" that
seem to obsess you are but a keystroke or two away.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 12:47:15 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Hey Dude, I like your style. You answered my query succinctly and completely. Thank you for your reponse. |
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Opinions regarding select UFO sightings
Topic Locked
