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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  11:56:11  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Source

Two fossils found in Kenya have shaken the human family tree, possibly rearranging major branches thought to be in a straight ancestral line to Homo sapiens.

Scientists who dated and analyzed the specimens — a 1.44 million-year-old Homo habilis and a 1.55 million-year-old Homo erectus — said their findings challenged the conventional view that these species evolved one after the other. Instead, they apparently lived side by side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  12:57:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

Source

Two fossils found in Kenya have shaken the human family tree, possibly rearranging major branches thought to be in a straight ancestral line to Homo sapiens.

Scientists who dated and analyzed the specimens — a 1.44 million-year-old Homo habilis and a 1.55 million-year-old Homo erectus — said their findings challenged the conventional view that these species evolved one after the other. Instead, they apparently lived side by side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years.

Sure, why not?

"If man came from monkey, then why are there still monkeys?" There are still mokeys because there is no reason for there not to still be monkeys.

I've had few doubts that there is species overlap in all ancestrial species including our own. The question, as I see it, is whether there was a common ancestor or Erectus branched from early Hablis.

Kenny & Jon-boy & the rest of the YEC's ought to have a lot of fun spinning this....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  13:36:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by pleco

Source

Two fossils found in Kenya have shaken the human family tree, possibly rearranging major branches thought to be in a straight ancestral line to Homo sapiens.

Scientists who dated and analyzed the specimens — a 1.44 million-year-old Homo habilis and a 1.55 million-year-old Homo erectus — said their findings challenged the conventional view that these species evolved one after the other. Instead, they apparently lived side by side in eastern Africa for almost half a million years.

Sure, why not?

"If man came from monkey, then why are there still monkeys?" There are still mokeys because there is no reason for there not to still be monkeys.

I've had few doubts that there is species overlap in all ancestrial species including our own. The question, as I see it, is whether there was a common ancestor or Erectus branched from early Hablis.

Kenny & Jon-boy & the rest of the YEC's ought to have a lot of fun spinning this....




Interesting! So maybe that's Great Uncle Habilis, not Grandpa Habilis. It'll take a long time to be certain of our complete pedigree. Which is natural, considering the paucity of fossils and researchers.

The Creationists will use any silly argument they can dream up to try to cast doubt on evolution, even obviously contradictory ones.

They even don't bother to keep their lies straight. They use, "If man came from monkey, then why are there still monkeys?" And they then turn right around and shamelessly argue, "If dogs evolved, and cats evolved, why aren't there any cogs or dats?"

They complain both about too few, and too many, evolutionary branches. Yet neither argument has the slightest thing to say about the truth of evolution.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/08/2007 15:09:36
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Cykranosh
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  05:41:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cykranosh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find the "evolution shaking" really silly, because there never has been consensus whether h. erectus is a direct descendant of h. habilis. And still it may be true, since h. habilis appeared earlier, h. erectus might still be (quite likely) an offshoot of h. habilis, and h. sapiens offshoot of h. erectus, and h. sapiens sapiens offshoot of h. sapiens. It's still wildly debated whether h. neanderthalensis is homo neanderthalensis or homo sapiens neanderthalensis, but all evidence points out to divergence before 350 thousand years ago, notwithstanding some circumstantial evidence for some interbreeding (and can't rule that out, but mtDNA is also just that, circumstantial mithocondrial DNA evidence from a single individual).

Only one thing would shake evolution, finding fossil remains of a modern creature in ancient strata. That has never happened. Human evolution is as firm as it ever was, but most people aren't satisfied with a few scattered remains over millions of years, they want more, and finding a h. habilis later than h. erectus isn't even surprising, after h. florensis, which is basically a miniature h. erectus long after h. sapiens had replaced them in most of the world.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  05:56:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cykranosh

I find the "evolution shaking" really silly, because there never has been consensus whether h. erectus is a direct descendant of h. habilis. And still it may be true, since h. habilis appeared earlier, h. erectus might still be (quite likely) an offshoot of h. habilis, and h. sapiens offshoot of h. erectus, and h. sapiens sapiens offshoot of h. sapiens. It's still wildly debated whether h. neanderthalensis is homo neanderthalensis or homo sapiens neanderthalensis, but all evidence points out to divergence before 350 thousand years ago, notwithstanding some circumstantial evidence for some interbreeding (and can't rule that out, but mtDNA is also just that, circumstantial mithocondrial DNA evidence from a single individual).

Only one thing would shake evolution, finding fossil remains of a modern creature in ancient strata. That has never happened. Human evolution is as firm as it ever was, but most people aren't satisfied with a few scattered remains over millions of years, they want more, and finding a h. habilis later than h. erectus isn't even surprising, after h. florensis, which is basically a miniature h. erectus long after h. sapiens had replaced them in most of the world.

Hi Cykranosh, and welcome to SFN!

The YECs have been searching for the Cambrian Croc, the Devonian Bunny and the Permian 'Possum for years and have yet to find anything even close.

That was an excellent post; looking forward to your further input!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Cykranosh
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  06:02:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cykranosh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To clarify, I would place the neanderthals to homo neandertalis, an offshoot of African homo erectus that migrated from Africa to the Middle-east and Europe before homo sapiens, but after the Asian homo erectus; the neandertals may have interbred with local homo erectus populations, or not.

Thus when our ancestors migrated out of Africa, they encountered two previous populations of ancient humans, h. neandertalis in Europe and Middle-east and h. erectus in far Asia,
any interbreeding is a matter of speculation. No real evidence exists, but the total (or almost total) disappearance of h. erectus suggests some interbreeding. How could thousands of people just die away when some wandering tribes come to their territory...

Oh, don't tell me. Conquering of the Americas. Maybe that's what happened, maybe not. The numbers were too few to resist a new cleverer race of man, either way. The history of that migration is lost to us, and maybe some findings in middle-Asia will enligthen us in the future.
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Cykranosh
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  06:10:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cykranosh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Crocodolia is actually a very ancient family, from the Cretaceous period, appearing in the fossil record around 80-90 million years before present. No Cambrian croc has been found yet, though. :) I'd be most amazed if one should be unearthed!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  06:35:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is the "shrouded in mystery" part that gets me most excited. We know these creatures so similar to humans walked the earth before us (and some of them at the same time as us!) but we know so little about what they were really like. Just look at the great apes and how different they are from each other in so many significant ways; who knows what these early hominids were up to. I find this field utterly fascinating.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  06:36:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I think you'll find that most of us around here are anything but surprised to hear this 'news'

Next thing you'll hear is that the fish did'nt turn directly into a limbed beach combing animal.

All hail the bacteria, our true masters.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  06:41:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cykranosh

Crocodolia is actually a very ancient family, from the Cretaceous period, appearing in the fossil record around 80-90 million years before present. No Cambrian croc has been found yet, though. :) I'd be most amazed if one should be unearthed!
Late Triassic, actually, and thus the Cambrian Croc will, alas, never be found due to an acute lack of reptiles and indeed, something of a shortage of vertebrates in general during those remarkable times.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  07:52:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw the press release too. My problem with it is that they didn't mention the debate that has gone on for as long as these creatures have been found, about where exactly to place them on the family tree. There was a shit storm after the Afarensis placement because the Leakey family did not agree. It turned into a knock down draged out war.

I love science!

Anyhow, what did make me happy was that the possible shake up was reported at all in the popular press.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  11:00:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Kenny & Jon-boy & the rest of the YEC's ought to have a lot of fun spinning this....
And so it begins.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  11:37:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by filthy

Kenny & Jon-boy & the rest of the YEC's ought to have a lot of fun spinning this....
And so it begins.
My, that was quick!

But y'know, if these Genesis and Intelligent Design-floggers are so freakin' smart, why are they not out there making these discoveries? To the best of my knowledge, they have not made any contribution of note to the biological sciences since Louis Pasture.

Edited to add link.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/10/2007 12:42:30
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2007 :  15:59:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ane here they are, again trying to turn one of science's greatest strengths into a weakness. AiG:
1. BBC NEWS: “Finds test human origins theory”

Evolutionists are busy rewriting the story of the evolution of humankind, reports the BBC's James Urquhart. Two hominid fossils from Kenya have prompted the revisions, which entail a new hypothesized evolutionary relationship between Homo habilis and Homo erectus, as claimed in the journal Nature.

Until these recent revelations, Homo habilis was believed by evolutionists to have been the direct predecessor of Homo erectus; the latter was also considered the immediate predecessor of Homo sapiens. The latest evolutionary speculation, however, is that Homo habilis and Homo erectus were “sister species that overlapped in time” rather than successive members of the hominid sequence.
It's not their best effort, but I suppose it's the best that people who do no field nor lab work, and have no credibility in any scientific field can do.







"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2007 :  16:03:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent rebuttal piece.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2007 :  16:36:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent indeed!

Odd isn't it, that it's really all so very simple and the apologists would make it sound so complicated. The fossil record is no more than a jigsaw puzzle of 3.5 billion year dimension. It is being put together a piece at a time, often mistaken and trying to fit them in places where they don't quite work. But another piece or two can indicate the correct place for the errant piece, and the assembly continues.

AiG, et al., do nothing but preach sermons based upon the Bible and filled with conviction, yet their own conjectures remain utterly unsupported in any sort of an empirical way.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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