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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:18:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Penyprity
I work for a municiple utility. There are several private utilities in the area, but our customers cannot choose to purchase their water or power from some other private company. We are a monopoly. We also deliver services well below the cost of the private companies in the ajoining regions. Over all, our prices are significanly lower, our service is superior (we dont answer to stock holders and ceo's with their own pockets to line, we answer to a city council and mayor who want to be re-elected) and we are more generous with our terms for payment. Our company has been rated one of the best utilities in price and service in all of California and the western United States...as well as one of the least expensive. |
(quote)Your retail price is subsidized by the tax payers, this is not an even comparison.
Not remotely true. Not only do we get no tax dollars to run the company, but we put large sums of revenues into the citys general fund to help pay for other city services that do not generate revenue. Like street services, street lighting, and general services like parks and recs. I would like to know where you get your "facts" from.(/quote)
I think a government monolpoly can do good work for their communities. However, I dont see government education as a monopoly either. You do have choices you can make. California taxes are pretty high and I dont pay anywhere near what a private school would cost. But I could choose to send my kids to one if I wanted and could afford it. Just having the choice cancels any idea that our education system in this country is a monopoly.
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You do know that the consumer that buys water and power from a private utility is also; thorough tax payments, paying partly for water and power for those that buy from the monopoly system?
This is the same in the school system. Those that choose to pay for private education also pay for public education.
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That is just not true. There is no tax base in our city for water and power. And people who pay a private company dont even live in our city so they pay nothing to us in taxes or any other way. However, If I did choose to send my kids to private schools I would still be paying for public education thru my property taxes. But, I dont have to send my kids to public school, I have the choice. That is why the school system in not a monopoly.
Do you just make this stuff up as you go? |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:20:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Penyprity
Theory is not fact and always debatable. Otherwise it would not be a theory.
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Does this mean that the theory of evolution is debatable?
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Of course it is. |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:01:17 [Permalink]
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Penyprity said:
That is just not true. There is no tax base in our city for water and power. And people who pay a private company dont even live in our city so they pay nothing to us in taxes or any other way. However, If I did choose to send my kids to private schools I would still be paying for public education thru my property taxes. But, I dont have to send my kids to public school, I have the choice. That is why the school system in not a monopoly. |
If you work for a public company it is supported by tax dollars. Maybe I am misunderstanding what kind of company you work for.
| Do you just make this stuff up as you go? |
I refuse to answer this question as it may incriminate me. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:19:03 [Permalink]
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Hey Peny, one post to go!!!
And yes, Jerome does a lot of shooting from the hip... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:28:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you work for a public company it is supported by tax dollars. |
That's quite wrong. The US Patent and Trademark Office is supported only by the fees it charges to those who seek patents and other services it provides. The Federal Budget singles them out as being in complete control of their fees, and shows a net of zero for their bottom line. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:43:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you work for a public company it is supported by tax dollars. |
That's quite wrong. The US Patent and Trademark Office is supported only by the fees it charges to those who seek patents and other services it provides. The Federal Budget singles them out as being in complete control of their fees, and shows a net of zero for their bottom line.
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Is the retirement funds provided for the employees also payed from these fees?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:57:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Is the retirement funds provided for the employees also payed from these fees? |
If there's a general budget line for "Federal Employee Retirement Funds" I was unable to find it. Any decent budget would include such things in with the cost of the office, along with vacation and sick pay and any other fringe (and as I understand it, most Federal employees are in a 401k now with a good match). If it were otherwise, the budget line(s) for the subject wouldn't reflect its total cost, and budget-watchers (both Democrat and Repulican) would have been screaming about this for decades already. So, unless there's evidence out there of which I'm not aware, I'd have to conclude that retirement funds will becoming out of the fees, yes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:59:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you work for a public company it is supported by tax dollars. |
That's quite wrong. The US Patent and Trademark Office is supported only by the fees it charges to those who seek patents and other services it provides. The Federal Budget singles them out as being in complete control of their fees, and shows a net of zero for their bottom line.
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Is the retirement funds provided for the employees also payed from these fees?
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Looks like the POT does fund employee retirement. Something I did find interesting was from time to time; despite having a surplus, the PTO asks to add surcharges to the fees which in turn are used by other parts of the executive branch. Defacto tax collector.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:05:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Is the retirement funds provided for the employees also payed from these fees? |
If there's a general budget line for "Federal Employee Retirement Funds" I was unable to find it. Any decent budget would include such things in with the cost of the office, along with vacation and sick pay and any other fringe (and as I understand it, most Federal employees are in a 401k now with a good match). If it were otherwise, the budget line(s) for the subject wouldn't reflect its total cost, and budget-watchers (both Democrat and Repulican) would have been screaming about this for decades already. So, unless there's evidence out there of which I'm not aware, I'd have to conclude that retirement funds will becoming out of the fees, yes.
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POT budget
This was the interesting document I found.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:11:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Something I did find interesting was from time to time; despite having a surplus, the PTO asks to add surcharges to the fees which in turn are used by other parts of the executive branch. Defacto tax collector. |
[Shrug] Completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not Peny's utility has tax support, or whether public enterprises deliver less quality at a higher cost than private.
Hell, could the the job of the USPTO (or the Copyright Office, for that matter) even be accomplished by numerous private entities in a free market? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:19:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Something I did find interesting was from time to time; despite having a surplus, the PTO asks to add surcharges to the fees which in turn are used by other parts of the executive branch. Defacto tax collector. |
[Shrug] Completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not Peny's utility has tax support, or whether public enterprises deliver less quality at a higher cost than private.
Hell, could the the job of the USPTO (or the Copyright Office, for that matter) even be accomplished by numerous private entities in a free market?
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You brought it up. (you know I like to research)
We do not have enough information to make a reasoned assessment concerning this particular water plant. That is why I stated that I may be misunderstanding the circumstances.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 22:49:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you work for a public company it is supported by tax dollars. |
That's quite wrong. The US Patent and Trademark Office is supported only by the fees it charges to those who seek patents and other services it provides. The Federal Budget singles them out as being in complete control of their fees, and shows a net of zero for their bottom line.
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Is the retirement funds provided for the employees also payed from these fees?
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Well, I cant answer for the PTO, but I can answer for my company. All of our retirement funds, sick pay, vacation pay and even our disability and workers comp is handled in house without city or state assistance. I pay into my retirement fund and the company matches my contribution. Also, because I am considered a government employee (city government falls into this status) I will not be eligable for Social Security when I retire and come of age. The federal government considers that "double dipping" even though I worked private sector for 15 years before coming to the utility and had paid into social security since I was 18. So, there is no give and take between this municiple utility and any tax base you can come up with. And like it or not we are a monopoly, we provide quality service and do it for less than the private companys. |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 23:10:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Penyprity
Well, I cant answer for the PTO, but I can answer for my company. All of our retirement funds, sick pay, vacation pay and even our disability and workers comp is handled in house without city or state assistance. I pay into my retirement fund and the company matches my contribution. Also, because I am considered a government employee (city government falls into this status) I will not be eligable for Social Security when I retire and come of age. The federal government considers that "double dipping" even though I worked private sector for 15 years before coming to the utility and had paid into social security since I was 18. So, there is no give and take between this municiple utility and any tax base you can come up with. And like it or not we are a monopoly, we provide quality service and do it for less than the private companys.
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Congrats on your fiftieth post.
Thanks for the info. I would now ask where did the capitalizations funds come from? Who payed for the original mechanisms of production?
By the way, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. You are better off being out of that system. It does suck that they confiscated your production from labor.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 09:05:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Penyprity
Well, I cant answer for the PTO, but I can answer for my company. All of our retirement funds, sick pay, vacation pay and even our disability and workers comp is handled in house without city or state assistance. I pay into my retirement fund and the company matches my contribution. Also, because I am considered a government employee (city government falls into this status) I will not be eligable for Social Security when I retire and come of age. The federal government considers that "double dipping" even though I worked private sector for 15 years before coming to the utility and had paid into social security since I was 18. So, there is no give and take between this municiple utility and any tax base you can come up with. And like it or not we are a monopoly, we provide quality service and do it for less than the private companys.
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Congrats on your fiftieth post.
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Thanks...and it only took me 6 years.
Thanks for the info. I would now ask where did the capitalizations funds come from? Who payed for the original mechanisms of production?
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Good question. I will have to look into this. I guess it would depend on whether it was before or after the city charter was enacted.
By the way, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. You are better off being out of that system. It does suck that they confiscated your production from labor.
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I dont know what you mean by 'Ponzi'.[quote] |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 13:39:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Penyprity
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
By the way, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. You are better off being out of that system. It does suck that they confiscated your production from labor.
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I dont know what you mean by 'Ponzi'.
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The introductory text from Wikipedia's article is a pretty good summary:
| A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying abnormally high returns ("profits") to investors out of the money paid in by subsequent investors, rather than from net revenues generated by any real business. |
A useful thing to know about in the grander scheme of things. If you're out and about on the Internet, sooner or later you're bound to bump in to a ponzi scheme or three. If you understand pyramid schemes in general, you're essentially there.
A completely fallacious comparison in relation to social security, but it seems to me that Jerome loves that sort of thing.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Penyprity and Thoughts of Scholl Taxes
