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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2007 : 13:33:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This would also explain Moses seeing and talking to a burning bush that did not burn.
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Considering the mushroom's natural biotope, how likely is it that Moses did even know about it?
Edited to add:
Conifer is the mushroom's normal home. How far from Sinai is the closest conifer forest? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/12/2007 13:36:01 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 14:57:57 [Permalink]
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http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mus01.htm
This site claims the oldest known depiction of the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms is 7-9k years ago in Saharan rock paintings. A bit of searching shows there are a few desert fungi, which grow very sparsly. Naturally all of the native plants would be known to ancient desert people, who had to make the most of every opportunity. That and the Sudan area was far more fertile back then, though by Moseses time it had pretty much dried up. But of course many non-fungi can induce hallucinations, so it doesnt have to be shrooms. (which also grow in all species of animals and doodoo)
EDIT: Video of fungus growing out of imsects, very cool.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/331826/ant_fungus/ |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/12/2007 15:03:07 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2007 : 17:46:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This would also explain Moses seeing and talking to a burning bush that did not burn.
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Considering the mushroom's natural biotope, how likely is it that Moses did even know about it?
Edited to add:
Conifer is the mushroom's normal home. How far from Sinai is the closest conifer forest?
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And it so happens that a conifer tree is commonly used as a Christmas tree.
We all know that various religions meld over time. One must remember that the Roman Empire brought Christianity to regions that did have conifers and mushrooms.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 17:52:10 [Permalink]
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Super cool video. I have seen that before; it is amazing, these relationships.
Thanks! |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 17:53:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Oddly enough, that is what magic mushroom typically grow on around my neck of the woods (not that I would know anything about that).
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Based on your avatar, I would suspect that maybe you do know.  |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 18:19:52 [Permalink]
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Lebanon Cedar
History, symbolism and uses
The importance of the Cedar of Lebanon to the various civilizations is conveyed through its uses. The trees were used in ancient times by the Phoenicians to build their trade and military ships, as well as their houses and temples. The Egyptians used its resin for mummification, and its sawdust was found in the pharaoh's tombs. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh designates the cedar groves of Lebanon as the dwelling of the gods to where Gilgamesh ventured. They also used to burn cedar in their ceremonies. Jewish priests were ordered by Moses to use the bark of the Lebanon Cedar in circumcision and treatment of leprosy. According to the Talmud, Jews used to burn Lebanese cedar wood on the Mount of Olives to announce the beginning of the new year. Kings of neighboring and distant countries asked for this wood to build their religious and civil constructs, the most famous of which are King Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem and David's and Solomon's Palaces. In addition it was used by Romans, Greeks, Persians, Assyrians and Babylonians. |
Seems that this particular conifer was still around in the time of Moses…
As I understand it, the Romans were at least partly responsible for destroying forests of cedar in the area for building and such…
I have no idea if the sillycybin shrooms grew there…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 04:29:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Lebanon Cedar
History, symbolism and uses
The importance of the Cedar of Lebanon to the various civilizations is conveyed through its uses. The trees were used in ancient times by the Phoenicians to build their trade and military ships, as well as their houses and temples. The Egyptians used its resin for mummification, and its sawdust was found in the pharaoh's tombs. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh designates the cedar groves of Lebanon as the dwelling of the gods to where Gilgamesh ventured. They also used to burn cedar in their ceremonies. Jewish priests were ordered by Moses to use the bark of the Lebanon Cedar in circumcision and treatment of leprosy. According to the Talmud, Jews used to burn Lebanese cedar wood on the Mount of Olives to announce the beginning of the new year. Kings of neighboring and distant countries asked for this wood to build their religious and civil constructs, the most famous of which are King Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem and David's and Solomon's Palaces. In addition it was used by Romans, Greeks, Persians, Assyrians and Babylonians. |
Seems that this particular conifer was still around in the time of Moses…
As I understand it, the Romans were at least partly responsible for destroying forests of cedar in the area for building and such…
I have no idea if the sillycybin shrooms grew there…
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Prob'ly did. There are one hell of a lot of species of these 'shrooms and while not all are mind bending, enough are that there is plenty for everybody. Distribution and habitat
Geographically, species in this genus are found throughout the world in most biomes, with the exception of high deserts. 60 species of Psilocybe occur in the United States, of which 25 are hallucinogenic. [2] For the bluing Psilocybe, the greatest species diversity seems to be in the neotropics, from Mesoamerica through Brazil and Chile.[2] Psilocybe are found in a variety of habitats and substrates. Many of the bluing species found in temperate regions, such as Psilocybe cyanescens, seem to have an affinity for landscaped areas mulched with woodchips and are actually rather rare in natural settings removed from human habitation. Contrary to popular belief, only a minority of Psilocybe species, such as P. coprophila and P. cubensis, grow directly on dung. Many other species are found in habitats such as mossy, grassy, or forest humus soils.
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And this doesn't take into account the home-grown efforts, which, I've been given to understand, are pretty extensive as well.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 10:18:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
As someone who has taken certain products in the past, I can say for certain that these drugs undoubtedly have played a part in every major religion at some point(on a small level). Each drug while labed "hallucinogen" has very different effects, not to mention the differnt effects caused by large doses of any of them.
LSD, is usually found mixed with amphetamines, which can be as much of a problem as the LSD itself, for me there is a tipping point from cohertantly enjoying the trip to total loss of control/bad trip... It is very easy to get one silly idea in your head and fixate on it. If someone were to casually say "Oh that's crazy" in an innocent context, the tripper could then fixate on the idea of actually going insane.
Mescaline, is a more calming drug which I never took in a significant quantity. I found it far less intense and frightening than LSD could be. I never really hallucinated on either drug, for me its more of a body buzz and a change in the way of thinking that occurs.
NEVER LISTEN TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT DRUGS, YOUR FRIENDS ARE DUMBASSES, I was taken to the hospital as a teen for jimson weed posioning, and nearly died(my friends heart stopped before being revived). The seeds of this common weed are ingested and produce strange effects besides hallucination, including blackouts, heat flashes and severe vertigo. During the event they tried to get me to put my shoes on to leave and I remember talking with them for a long time and could not figure out why they kept repeating everything....I was only talking in my head appearntly. I was blacked out for 8+ hours during which I was awake and incoherant.
I witnessed 3 people take a drug called mandrake root which they had soaked into some vodka, this was a very scary drug and Im very thankful my dumb ass was smart enough to say no. This drug causes severe hallucinations and a belief that what you are seeing is actually happening (this is very unusual for hallucinogens at small doses) my friend was petting a shoelace he thought was a snake...
One of the individuals fled the apartment and was missing for 3 days, he had driven himself to the hospital and checked himself in for radiation posioning, from the alien ray guns. They soft roomed him for awhile.
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While I learned my lesson, one of my good friends went down the road to ruin becoming addicted to everything he could get his hands on, I had to babysit him on more than one occasion so that he would not walk into traffic.
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Back on the topic at hand, I can imagine that taking of these drugs in unregulated doses with no knowledge of brain functions and chemicals, would easily lead to connections with whatever religion was in play. What else could it be to them? Also many people would also ingest these things with no knowledge that they were about to be intoxicated, this type of event could be incredably frightning and would certainly be a 'religious' experience, the Salem witch problem comes to mind, an event which led to the deaths of those who accidentaly took the drugs.
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(Bolding mine)
Yes, my experiences were similar. I noted that to a (supposedly) more experimented friend of mine and she told me that it was because of the quantity (not enough) since I had never taken more than one and half carton (do you call the LSD shots "cartons" in the US?) at any given time.
Cheers!
perro de tokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 10:58:15 [Permalink]
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| No LSD is sold in 'hits' in the US, usually as drops of liquid on small paper squares in 75-150 microgram amounts...and amount was not my problem as I took more than I should have on two occasions. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 11:47:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
No LSD is sold in 'hits' in the US, usually as drops of liquid on small paper squares in 75-150 microgram amounts...and amount was not my problem as I took more than I should have on two occasions.
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Yes. That´s what we call a "carton" in Argentina, although it would be a literal translation and I suppose it does not have the same meaning in english. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2007 : 12:03:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
No LSD is sold in 'hits' in the US, usually as drops of liquid on small paper squares in 75-150 microgram amounts...and amount was not my problem as I took more than I should have on two occasions.
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Yes. That´s what we call a "carton" in Argentina, although it would be a literal translation and I suppose it does not have the same meaning in english.
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Here, a 'carton' is a box or container. A medium-sized carton of blotter acid would be enough to waste the minds of a multitude.
Back around 1970, I had my one and only taste of LSD. That one time was enough. And please don't ask because I don't remember it all that well, nor want to.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/13/2007 12:08:00 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 18:22:32 [Permalink]
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Okay, so, I was right in the thick of it. I graduated high school in 67 and was dropping acid fairly regularly in my senior year.
The first time, I took it with friends who had never had it either. We took it in the evening at a house of a friend who's parents were out of town. By sunrise, we thought of buying robes and knocking on peoples doors to tell them about how acid can open up new ways of viewing reality. In short, we were corndogs.
The last time I had LSD was at a commune in Grass Valley, California. Nice place. We had acid and eggs for breakfast. After coming on to it I made my way to a little stream that ran though the property. I settled on a rock and took in my surroundings. Fish in the water, moss hanging from the branches of the trees, the sound of the water running below me. I was alone and preferred it that way because relating to people was a lot of work on acid. Anyhow, I had stopped taking acid for a long time because there comes a time when you start to notice the side effects, like the funny taste in your mouth or that speedy feeling when you wanted to just relax. The hallucinogenic part was also a hassle because unlike mushrooms or peyote, it just didn't let up. You were in for the duration, like it or not.
Anyhow, I took my shirt off. This was how it should be. Nature and acid. No city paranoia (everyone knows I'm stoned) or outside distractions of the unwanted kind. Just nature. I sat for a long time taking it in completely oblivious to the rest of the world or even to myself. And that turned out badly for me. Eventually I glanced down at my shirtless torso, which happened to be carpeted in mosquitoes. Whoa!!!!
I spent the rest of the day rubbing myself, even after I put my shirt back on which was immediately. I ran back to the house, and spent the day fixated on the bites, on acid…
The next day, I had a fever from having so many bites. And, of course, there was the pain…
I resolved to never take a hallucinogen again. Anything that could cause me to be so mindless of my own physical condition was not for me any longer. That was somewhere around 1970.
My first wife wanted to try mushrooms. I relented. I hadn't had a hallucinogen in twenty years, but hey… I chewed mine up really good. She apparently didn't. She experienced some odd feelings, got tired and went to bed. I spent the night watching sci fi movies, blitzed out on mushrooms. Not a bad night, but it was the very last time ever took a hallucinogen, and I expect it to stay that way.
Recently my niece was talking to me about acid. She told me that it really did expand her mind and gave her insights she would never have had without it. I asked her, what insights might those be?
“You know, like the universe and stuff.”
“Yes, but what insights did you have? What did you learn that you wouldn't have learned anyway?”
“Well, you took it, don't you know?”
“Oh, so this is some unspoken understanding that we have? About the universe?”
“Well, kinda, yeah…”
“Here is what I learned. You can spend a few hours experiencing a drug-induced psychosis, but when it's over, reality is always there. I could never change that, even though at one time I thought I could.”
She frowned.
I told her she was playing a dangerous game. I suggested to her that if she was going to play that game to remember that she took a drug and whatever was real before she took it is still real, no matter how she feels at the time of intoxication.
I may be a cool uncle, but I'm not that cool. I mean, we were just corndogs…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 21:22:18 [Permalink]
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Can you pass the test?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 08:19:16 [Permalink]
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Wenever I take mind-altering drugs I´m always very concious that I am under the influence and therefore enjoy the "trip" without accepting it as "reality". That seems to be a big problem for some people, either because they think they found some universal thruth (when the trip is good) or freak out really bad (when it´s not so good).
However it´s not often that I do it and would not recommend it to any one who´s mind isn´t already made up about trying it.
Cheers!
perro de tokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 09:22:33 [Permalink]
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Part of me is dangerously curious about drugs in general and hallucinogenics in special - mainly because I'm very curious about what, exactly, I would experience and how would it impact me, whether for the best or for the worse.
The other part of me keeps telling me it's not worth the risk. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Religon and Magic Mushrooms
