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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:14:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Jerome, the NHS is FREE
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Really, who pays the doctors salary?
Does the doctor work for free?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:18:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by pleco
I think, though, that the doctors should help him quit for the time it takes (6 weeks) so that he can get his surgery...
and yes I think the US he might be refused because of the risks to his life because of his drug addiction.
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You are wrong.
In America, if you pay for surgery, the doctor preforms surgery.
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In the UK, if you want to pay, you do so. You have the choice (if you have the money).
In five years I used the NHS quite often (and I am a smoker). MY experience with NHS attention was really good, specially when a doctor told me to do yoga excercises for my (severe) back pain instead of operating or filling me with medications.
Guess what? in a week´s time I had no pain whatsoever (to this day I still practice yoga, although just for the physical side of it and not the "spiritual" bit).
When I went to the NHS hospital for my back pain I could barely walk, three months after I was mountainboarding again.
I repeat: That was MY experience, take it with a pinch of salt. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:20:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by perrodetokio
Jerome, the NHS is FREE
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Really, who pays the doctors salary?
Does the doctor work for free?
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I pay it with the taxes I pay.
Who pays for the roads for you to drive your car? Are they free? |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:22:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by perrodetokio
Jerome, the NHS is FREE
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Really, who pays the doctors salary?
Does the doctor work for free?
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I pay it with the taxes I pay.
Who pays for the roads for you to drive your car? Are they free?
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Who pays for the parks in your city to be kept tidy?
Who pays for the military to keep you safe from the whatever?
Who pays for your police force?
Who pays for your firefighters?
Who pays for sidewalks for you to walk on and not get run over by cars?
etc. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:26:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
In the UK, if you want to pay, you do so. You have the choice (if you have the money). |
Exactly, if you make enough to pay the taxes AND fund your own medical care you are do to go. The fact is the taxes are so high few fall into this category.
In five years I used the NHS quite often (and I am a smoker). MY experience with NHS attention was really good, specially when a doctor told me to do yoga excercises for my (severe) back pain instead of operating or filling me with medications.
Guess what? in a week´s time I had no pain whatsoever (to this day I still practice yoga, although just for the physical side of it and not the "spiritual" bit).
When I went to the NHS hospital for my back pain I could barely walk, three months after I was mountainboarding again.
I repeat: That was MY experience, take it with a pinch of salt.
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Good news. I am happy the doctor gave you good advice. Yes, this is anecdotal. It is the system, not the individual doctor that is the problem.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:29:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
I pay it with the taxes I pay.
Who pays for the roads for you to drive your car? Are they free?
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If you are young and healthy, you overpay. If you are old and infirmed you are at the mercy of the system.
I pay for the roads in a gas tax. A gas tax is related to the use of the roads.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:31:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by perrodetokio
In the UK, if you want to pay, you do so. You have the choice (if you have the money). |
Exactly, if you make enough to pay the taxes AND fund your own medical care you are do to go. The fact is the taxes are so high few fall into this category.
In five years I used the NHS quite often (and I am a smoker). MY experience with NHS attention was really good, specially when a doctor told me to do yoga excercises for my (severe) back pain instead of operating or filling me with medications.
Guess what? in a week´s time I had no pain whatsoever (to this day I still practice yoga, although just for the physical side of it and not the "spiritual" bit).
When I went to the NHS hospital for my back pain I could barely walk, three months after I was mountainboarding again.
I repeat: That was MY experience, take it with a pinch of salt.
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Good news. I am happy the doctor gave you good advice. Yes, this is anecdotal. It is the system, not the individual doctor that is the problem.
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I never had any trobuble paying my taxes in the UK, not even when I was earning minimum wage. Taxes over there are proportional to your income.
Maybe if you pay the same amount as rich people and your not, then it´s a problem. In the UK taxes don´t work that way. You earn a fortune, you pay high taxes (but you earn a fortune so you can still pay for everything else). If you earn little, you pay small taxes.
You will hear people complain about taxes in the UK, however many of those complaining wouldn´t hear of moving to a different system. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:42:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Who pays for the parks in your city to be kept tidy? |
Property tax.
| Who pays for the military to keep you safe from the whatever? |
Federal income tax. Although a standing army being needed is debatable
| Who pays for your police force? |
Property tax. Sales tax. State income tax. Corporate tax.
| Who pays for your firefighters? |
Property tax. Sales tax. State income tax. Corporate tax.
Who pays for sidewalks for you to walk on and not get run over by cars?
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Property tax. Sales tax. State income tax. Corporate tax.
These are different taxes from different sources. I am not against taxation. I am against the taking of taxes for the government to replace systems that currently work.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:43:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by pleco
So are you going to retract when I find an example of this in the US?
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Yes, if you find an example of a person that was refused by every doctor seen and could not legally receive the surgery.
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That is not what you said. You do this all the time. Discussion over.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:47:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
I never had any trobuble paying my taxes in the UK, not even when I was earning minimum wage. Taxes over there are proportional to your income.
Maybe if you pay the same amount as rich people and your not, then it´s a problem. In the UK taxes don´t work that way. You earn a fortune, you pay high taxes (but you earn a fortune so you can still pay for everything else). If you earn little, you pay small taxes.
You will hear people complain about taxes in the UK, however many of those complaining wouldn´t hear of moving to a different system.
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One never has trouble paying a tax that is taken directly from their income, or hidden in the cost of goods. A thousand cuts; one at a time, is not overtly perceivable.
The best kind of slave is the slave that does not consider him self a slave.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 15:50:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by pleco
So are you going to retract when I find an example of this in the US?
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Yes, if you find an example of a person that was refused by every doctor seen and could not legally receive the surgery.
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That is not what you said. You do this all the time. Discussion over.
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What would you like me to retract? I made no statement.
I asked you a question!
So, you quit because you thought you caught me, and you found out you did not?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 16:06:09 [Permalink]
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Here is one example:When the renowned Mount Sinai Hospital in New York refused to perform surgery on a 15-month-old boy, son of an Indian-American couple, with choked arteries due to the high risk factors involved, the parents were devastated.
Little did they know that their baby would be given a new lease of life back in India, courtesy the experts of Pediatric Heart Care Team at Wockhardt Hospital in Mumbai. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 16:12:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Here is one example:When the renowned Mount Sinai Hospital in New York refused to perform surgery on a 15-month-old boy, son of an Indian-American couple, with choked arteries due to the high risk factors involved, the parents were devastated.
Little did they know that their baby would be given a new lease of life back in India, courtesy the experts of Pediatric Heart Care Team at Wockhardt Hospital in Mumbai. |
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Glad to hear the market system worked.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 16:16:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
You guys are not comprehending the implications of this example of state run medical care.
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Not correct. Doctors refuse treatment based on pre-existing conditions, even in non-state run care systems.
So are you going to retract when I find an example of this in the US?
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Actually, I'm not in US but I can find you that example right on. In fact, happening to myself alone, I can find you plenty of that.
Ironically, once it happened in reverse - a public hospital's doctor was more than willing to rip me up because, hey, that's his job, when a private doctor went "ARE YOU CRAZY? DON'T DO THAT." A private doctor who also works in the public system.
Another doctor (private) adamantly refused to do a cosmetic (well, not so much - I have my pretty biological reasons to want it done) surgery on me because I'd pose a risk. I'm sure other doctors, equally paid, would have said right on. And I'd be fucked afterwards. I don't want to be killed by some mercenary so when a doctor says 'no', I actually listen.
Mm... could it be that doctors are real people who think by themselves and don't change personalities simply due to their environment?
Could it be that some doctors are not mercenaries and won't butcher up a patient that has a risk of dying in the process?
Could it be that some doctors are mercenaries and for a fee will cut up anyone who asks them to, the patient be damned? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Social Medicine=No Care for Smoker
