|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2007 : 22:59:13
|
Almost unbelievable.
The U.S. Senate has confirmed that you can be arrested without cause.
Habeas Corpus
| Also known as "The Great Writ," a writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is a court order addressed to a prison official (or other custodian) ordering that a prisoner be brought before the court so that the court can determine whether that person is serving a lawful sentence or should be released from custody. The prisoner, or some other person on his behalf (for example, where the prisoner is being held incommunicado), may petition the court or an individual judge for a writ of habeas corpus. |
Opps, do not need this in a tyranny.
I will now refrain from these sorts of postings. Just watch the news. This is not unexpected if one knows history.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2007 : 01:36:01 [Permalink]
|
Sorry motherfuckers are unfit to hold public office and should be removed along with the assholes in the Exeutive Branch who concieved it, and then charged with treason.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 02:06:00 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
Sorry motherfuckers are unfit to hold public office and should be removed along with the assholes in the Executive Branch who conceived it, and then charged with treason. |
Chris Dodd is one of several interesting, articulate Democratic Presidential candidates, and he seems to have a sense of how the liberal democracy of the founding fathers has eroded terribly in the Bush years. If you've seen the movie "Judgment at Nuremberg" one of the prosecuting attorneys (portrayed by Richard Widmark,) was in real life Chris Dodd's father.
. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 03:05:21 [Permalink]
|
Note that 60 votes were required. The bill only got 56. The Republican minority was able to quash the bill, though it looks as though all Democrats voted for it. I hope those GOP Senators get their feet held to the fire (literally, if possible) by their constituents for this.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 03:07:21 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by filthy
Sorry motherfuckers are unfit to hold public office and should be removed along with the assholes in the Executive Branch who conceived it, and then charged with treason. |
Chris Dodd is one of several interesting, articulate Democratic Presidential candidates, and he seems to have a sense of how the liberal democracy of the founding fathers has eroded terribly in the Bush years. If you've seen the movie "Judgment at Nuremberg" one of the prosecuting attorneys (portrayed by Richard Widmark,) was in real life Chris Dodd's father.
.
|
Thanks for that reference, Chip. The elder Dodd was one of my heroes.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 03:08:27 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Almost unbelievable.
The U.S. Senate has confirmed that you can be arrested without cause.
Habeas Corpus
| Also known as "The Great Writ," a writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is a court order addressed to a prison official (or other custodian) ordering that a prisoner be brought before the court so that the court can determine whether that person is serving a lawful sentence or should be released from custody. The prisoner, or some other person on his behalf (for example, where the prisoner is being held incommunicado), may petition the court or an individual judge for a writ of habeas corpus. |
Opps, do not need this in a tyranny.
I will now refrain from these sorts of postings. Just watch the news. This is not unexpected if one knows history.
|
Good post, Jerome!
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2007 : 03:37:35 [Permalink]
|
Indeed!
Yes, I find myself in somewhat of a quandary, agreeing solidly with Jerome, but there you have it.
May it happen more often....
I really think that the knife the GOP is cutting it's own collective throat with is getting rustier and duller by the hour. They are becoming seen as mindless ideologues and corporate suck-ups with the nation's best interests far down the list of their priorities. The vile Bush/Cheney symbiosis has done us a favor; that of stripping the disguising cloak of patriotism from them and showing them for what they really are.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 04:52:47 [Permalink]
|
Mooner wrote: | The Republican minority was able to quash the bill, though it looks as though all Democrats voted for it. |
One Dem voted against it. Lieberman. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2007 : 05:23:14 [Permalink]
|
Did not the Democrats vote in favor of the original law which necessitated this bill?
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2007 : 05:31:37 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Mooner wrote: | The Republican minority was able to quash the bill, though it looks as though all Democrats voted for it. |
One Dem voted against it. Lieberman.
|
It goes without saying, but I will: Lieberman is no more than a cheap whore servicing the Republicans, and an exceptionally slimy one. I have read that CT is regreting sending him back to Congress and if the election were held today, he'd be cooling his round heels in the unemployment line.
And it is a sad commentary on the Democrats that they let him get away with it.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 05:51:29 [Permalink]
|
Jerome wrote: | Did not the Democrats vote in favor of the original law which necessitated this bill? |
Cite the specific law so those of us who don't know what you are referring to don't have to go dig for it ourselves. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 06:01:08 [Permalink]
|
| Okay, I went and dug for it anyway. I assume you mean the Department of Defense Appropriations Act of 2006, otherwise known as the "McCain Detainee Amendment". As I suspected, the main thrust of this Act was anti-torture. Most people know that one of the big problems with the way our federal government governs is that additional portions which are unrelated to the main portion of a Bill can be tacked on, and it seems that in this one, we have section 1005, part (e) which "prohibits aliens detained in Guantanamo Bay from applying for a writ of habeas corpus." So basically, Democrats had the choice of voting against an anti-torture Bill or voting to get rid of habeas corpus for aliens. Nice choice. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 09/20/2007 06:01:49 |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 06:12:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Jerome wrote: | Did not the Democrats vote in favor of the original law which necessitated this bill? |
Cite the specific law so those of us who don't know what you are referring to don't have to go dig for it ourselves.
|
Patriot act 2
| lawful permanent residents who are not suspected of posing any risk to national security - but have committed some minor criminal offense even in the distant past - will be stripped of their right to an immigration hearing and will be barred from petitioning a federal court to correct any unlawful actions by the government (sec. 504). Patriot Act 2 does this by rescinding the authority that the Supreme Court relied on to review the government's actions - the Habeas Corpus Statute. |
56 votes is enough the create a public outcry. If the Democrats wanted to receive the publics support in passing this bill they have the ability to do so. This was a sham vote with the purpose of creating divisions in the populous without having to rescind the legal loss of habeas corpus.
This vote; despite receiving a majority, only "shows" America that Habeas Corpus is no longer in effect.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 06:16:21 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Okay, I went and dug for it anyway. I assume you mean the Department of Defense Appropriations Act of 2006, otherwise known as the "McCain Detainee Amendment". As I suspected, the main thrust of this Act was anti-torture. Most people know that one of the big problems with the way our federal government governs is that additional portions which are unrelated to the main portion of a Bill can be tacked on, and it seems that in this one, we have section 1005, part (e) which "prohibits aliens detained in Guantanamo Bay from applying for a writ of habeas corpus." So basically, Democrats had the choice of voting against an anti-torture Bill or voting to get rid of habeas corpus for aliens. Nice choice.
|
The Democrats won the last midterm elections because they ran against such ideas. That is why they were elected. They hold the majority.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 12:05:00 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
The legislation that eliminated habeas was the Military Commissions Act of 2006, for which 44 Congressional Democrats voted "aye" and a further seven abstained. There is a dispute over whether the MCA applies to U.S. Citizens, due to inconsistent language. The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 only prohibited new writs after its passage, while the MCA squashed all of them. |
This legislation was necessary, since the term "Unlawful Combatant" is very nebulous and left up to each country to work out.
The Geneva Conventions clearly outline the requirements for a detainee to be awarded POW status.
Taken, with minor modifications, from Wikipedia:
Detainees must be treated as POWs if they meet one of the following conditions:- Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict
- Members of militias not under the command of the armed forces but meet all of the following conditions:
- Commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates
- Having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance
- Carrying arms openly
- Conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war
- Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power (the country that captured the detainees)
- Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war
- Civilians who provide non-combat support to the military and carry military-issued identification cards
Anybody else conducting military action is considered an Unlawful Combatant and is subject to the criminal laws of the Detaining Power.
The US Constitution guarantees Habeas Corpus, but fails to articulate whether it applies to everybody or to citizens only.
There are two questions raised by the above points:
1) If terrorists were treated as POWs, what incentive do our servicemen and -women have to abide by the above restrictions?
2) How should we treat these unlawful enemy combatants? Call them mass murderers and allow them to suck up our tax dollars while we give them the same trial proceedings that a citizen earns?
The DTA and MCA that Dave W. discussed above are attempts to resolve these issues. |
|
|
 |
|
Senate Votes Against Habeas Corpus
