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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2007 : 16:21:32
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Ok, a little background for those who haven't argued this: Vestigial limbs and organs are an embarrassment to the YEC and more frantic of the IDoids. They really push the apologetics envelope to explain them. Well, now, on the surface at least, they've got some help. It seems that the AP published an article stating that the human appendix might have a use other than the potential to kill us. The article cited The Journal of Theoretical Biology (link at the bottom of the article). I looked for the paper but couldn't find it (which doesn't mean it's not there), and even if I had, I couldn't open it without a subscription & cash. Related News
Scientists: Appendix Protects Good Germs
The Associated Press - 2 hours ago
Your Appendix Has a Reason After All
By SETH BORENSTEIN – 2 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — Some scientists think they have figured out the real job of the troublesome and seemingly useless appendix: It produces and protects good germs for your gut.
That's the theory from surgeons and immunologists at Duke University Medical School, published online in a scientific journal this week.
For generations the appendix has been dismissed as superfluous. Doctors figured it had no function. Surgeons removed them routinely. People live fine without them.
And when infected the appendix can turn deadly. It gets inflamed quickly and some people die if it isn't removed in time. Two years ago, 321,000 Americans were hospitalized with appendicitis, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The function of the appendix seems related to the massive amount of bacteria populating the human digestive system, according to the study in the Journal of Theoretical Biology. There are more bacteria than human cells in the typical body. Most of it is good and helps digest food.
But sometimes the flora of bacteria in the intestines die or are purged. Diseases such as cholera or amoebic dysentery would clear the gut of useful bacteria. The appendix's job is to reboot the digestive system in that case.
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I'm going to look around a bit. If the appendix is not vestigial but actually has a use, it will not affect the ToE in the least. It will do no more than change the sceintific thought on it, and perhaps lead to fewer appendectomies. But either way, the comments and rather misguided gloating from the usual suspects should be highly amusing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 16:34:51 [Permalink]
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Yup, this should be fun. It's nice when science throws an occasional crumb to the Creationists, just so we can watch them scramble for it in a desperate feeding frenzy. (Just back up a bit in case they decide to hurl feces at us.)
One point: Even if the appendix does operate as a safe harbor for beneficial bacterial flora, that doesn't automatically make its continued existence a net asset. It could be that (without modern medicine, at least) appendicitis is such a great danger to life that this danger overshadows any benefit it might provide. This is probably a matter that statistically-minded medical scientists could work out with a fair degree of precision.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 16:49:18 [Permalink]
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Let's go a leeetle farther and do a brief description of the vermiform appendix, as it is known at this writing (I suspect that the J of TB & the researchers haven't reached any firm conclusions as of yet).
(image reproduced with modifications from Gray 1918)
The vermiform appendix: background info
In humans, the vermiform appendix is a small, finger-sized structure, found at the end of our small caecum and located near the beginning of the large intestine (Fawcett and Raviola 1994, p. 636; Oxford Companion to the Body 2001, pp. 42-43; Williams and Myers 1994). The adjective "vermiform" literally means "worm-like" and reflects the narrow, elongated shape of this intestinal appendage. The appendix is typically between two and eight inches long, but its length can vary from less than an inch (when present) to over a foot. The appendix is longest in childhood and gradually shrinks throughout adult life. The wall of the appendix is composed of all layers typical of the intestine, but it is thickened and contains a concentration of lymphoid tissue. Similar to the tonsils, the lymphatic tissue in the appendix is typically in a constant state of chronic inflammation, and it is generally difficult to tell the difference between pathological disease and the "normal" condition (Fawcett and Raviola 1994, p. 636). The internal diameter of the appendix, when open, has been compared to the size of a matchstick. The small opening to the appendix eventually closes in most people by middle age. A vermiform appendix is not unique to humans. It is found in all the hominoid apes, including humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and gibbons, and it exists to varying degrees in several species of New World and Old World monkeys (Fisher 2000; Hill 1974; Scott 1980).
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I have somehow managed to screw the link up. When it opens, scroll up.
Now, lessee what happens.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 18:30:04 [Permalink]
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Thanks! Also, from that Web page, and demonstrating what a non-issue to evolutionary theory an existing function of the appendix would be:| The human appendix may have bona fide functions, but this is currently controversial, undemonstrated in humans, and irrelevant as to whether the appendix is a true vestige or not. |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2007 : 22:00:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
If the appendix is not vestigial but actually has a use... |
ACK! Please avoid repeating the creationist claim that "vestigal" means "functionless." Even if the appendix has a use, it's still clearly vestigal (as figure 2 in your own link shows). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 00:44:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by filthy
If the appendix is not vestigial but actually has a use... |
ACK! Please avoid repeating the creationist claim that "vestigal" means "functionless." Even if the appendix has a use, it's still clearly vestigal (as figure 2 in your own link shows).
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Good point. But that sense of "vestigial" is not only the non-scientific Creationist usage of the word, it's also the popular idea of what it means. It takes a distinct effort, at least for me, to remember that the scientific meaning doesn't preclude a function.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 01:36:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by filthy
If the appendix is not vestigial but actually has a use... |
ACK! Please avoid repeating the creationist claim that "vestigal" means "functionless." Even if the appendix has a use, it's still clearly vestigal (as figure 2 in your own link shows).
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Poor wording on my part. That happens now & then.
But let's look at it a little closer. The "spurs" on the corners of a male boid's (pythons & boas) cloaca are the vestiges of ancient legs. Somewhere along the evolutionary line they began to be used to excite the ladies. Thus, they disappeared in the females and shrank to tiny claw-like appendages in the males. So, they still have a use. But the pelvic girdle in whales does not, at least as far as anyone can tell. Neither does the shrunken & non-functioning lung found in the afore-mentioned as well as all other snakes.
"Vestigial" is not really a very good word for this as it is not precise enough to differentiate between still-useful attributes and excess baggage. Thus, the fundies love it because it can blur the line from one evolutionary situation to another, and they rely heavily upon blurred lines to give whatever dubious credibility to their claims that they can manage to pull out of their nether regions.
Me, I hope the vermiform appendix really does prove out to be a sort of bacterial sourdough starter. It would revive our fundie friends and make for some marvelous arguments.
By the bye, the vermiform appendix is not to be found in all mammals. It is mainly the province of the great apes and some few monkeys, which opens another question: if it is of such benefit, why not?
I remain of the opinion that it is an evolutionary remnant that seemed like a good idea at the time, but like many seemingly good ideas was eventually discarded. Unfortunately, some of it still tags along with us like the eyes of the cave fish and the mouth parts of non-feeding flatworms. Indeed, give evolution enough time, and it may well disappear altogether.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 12:46:48 [Permalink]
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Got one!
It's from Uncommon Decent and it's pretty pathetic. Apart from a little celebratory ass-scratching in the comments and a link to the study, there's nothing there. The Appendix Finds A Job. Or Had One All the Time…
Paul Nelson
“Yeah, so what. So I spend a lot of time at this one Starbucks, sure, when other organ systems are busy working. Venti dark roast, room for cream.”
“Doesn't mean I don't put in my time on the job.”
“Do you really think natural selection would have kept me on the payroll this long if I wasn't doing something?”
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And that's it, less the comments. Don't feel alone, I don't understand it, either. I suppose it's written from the point of view of an appendix, but who can be sure? There's not enough for it to be definitive and if it's an attempt at sarcasm, it's failed.
I am very disappointed.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 16:03:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I am very disappointed. |
With a hat-tip to the AtBC folks, you've gotta go back to UD's Digital Forensics thread where commenters "Collin" and "Nochange" talk about it. Especially "Nochange," in two posts:The appendix story isn't being touted as an ID story by the mainstream media, but it should be. I'll bet the authors are closet ID supporters. Can we get Mr. Scot to check that for us? (I don't presume to boss anyone, but I just thought it might be a good idea?)
And it's published in a peer-reviewed journal. Take that, Mr. Dawkin! And:“The theory led Gary Huffnagle, a University of Michigan internal medicine and microbiology professor, to wonder about the value of another body part that is often yanked: ‘I'll bet eventually we'll find the same sort of thing with the tonsils.'”
Hah! The tonsils will have a function, too. I'll bet the Darwinists are just furious! Keep dreaming, dude. Really gotta love the last part:On a side note, is there somewhere I can donate money for ID research? I'd like donate some money for appendix and tonsil research. Anyone know a good organization I can put my money into? I nearly wet my pants. This person is commenting on the blog of a Discovery Institute Senior Fellow, and doesn't know where to donate his money. The ignorance, it burns.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 16:43:42 [Permalink]
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Good catch, Dave! I checked out the post but it didn't interest me much, so I didn't bother with the comments.
Heh, the donation question was priceless, considering the answer. Maybe we can con him into donating it here. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 18:20:22 [Permalink]
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Now, just how the hell could anyone research the appendix (or the tonsils) without studying them across species? In other words, the usage of the organ only has a chance of becoming clear once we have a full idea of it's functions through evolutionary time. Evolution is the context, without which such study is meaningless.
Of course, doing any kind of scientific research at all is the furthest thing from what the DI would ever undertake. They know as well as anyone that if you get into studying nature, troubling evolutionary facts are an unavoidable obstacle to dogma thousands of years old.
Naw, their "research" will continue to be confined to hooting and booing from the peanut gallery of science, pointing out every gap they can see or imagine, never trying to do or even influence science (aside from obstruction), but only to appeal to their ignorant base and creepy Dominionist billionaires like Howard Ahmanson.
I find it hilarious how one poster at UD wrote: "I'll bet the authors are closet ID supporters." Sure. If you got no published, peer-reviewed ID papers, try to imagine that some real scientist is a "closet supporter." Around Christmas, they may be claiming that Santa is a secret admirer, and that all his toys prove specified complexity.
ID has been called "Creationism in a cheap tuxedo." You could also call the Discovery Institute "Jack Chick in a lab coat." A nice clean lab coat, worn like priestly vestments, that never sees any wear.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/06/2007 18:23:12 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:04:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I find it hilarious how one poster at UD wrote: "I'll bet the authors are closet ID supporters." Sure. If you got no published, peer-reviewed ID papers, try to imagine that some real scientist is a "closet supporter." Around Christmas, they may be claiming that Santa is a secret admirer, and that all his toys prove specified complexity. |
That's the latest-and-greatest ID science paradigm. Find some serious research that either uses the word "design" in it or presents a "surprising" result, and claim it for their own. Usually by asserting, "ID predicted this, but the Darwinists/materialists/atheists didn't," without actually having predicted anything. How could it? Whether the appendix has a function or not is irrelevant to whether it was "designed" (I can take an undesigned rock and give it the function of a paperweight, and snapping a bicycle in half through the main gear removes its function while retaining its design).
Plus, given all the stammering about scientists who have to keep quiet about their support for ID for fear of losing their jobs and/or reputation, and it's no wonder that to the non-scientists, every scientist has suddenly become a possible "closet ID supporter." But so far as I know, the number of biologists who've lost jobs over ID is zero, and the number of scientists in other fields who've lost jobs over ID is also zero. There may be a few closet ID scientists out there, but since they refuse to speak up, they count for nothing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2007 : 12:45:55 [Permalink]
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Here's a little more on it. Appendectomies are not likely to cease anytime in the foreseeable future nor will the surgeons that perform them have to give up steak & lobster. Scientists: Surgeons not out of a Job Anytime Soon—Or Why that Appendicitis Still Hurts.
By Guest Contributor on October 9, 2007 9:20 AM
By Douglas L. Theobald, Assistant Professor of Biochemistry, Brandeis University
”Its major importance would appear to be financial support of the surgical profession.”
—Alfred Sherwood Romer and Thomas S. Parsons, The Vertebrate Body (1986), p. 389.
A recent science news article from the Associated Press reports on a novel hypothesis (Bollinger et al. 2007 JTB in press) concerning the possible function of the human vermiform appendix. Given how much creationists dislike all things vestigial, the Bollinger paper will undoubtedly be paraded on anti-evolution websites with grandiose claims about how “researchers are declaring that they have found a purpose for the human appendix”—and the paper itself unfortunately provides several tasty quote-mines ready to be plucked.
The new hypothesis, to be published in the Journal of Theoretical Biology, was proposed by a group of immunologists and surgeons from Duke University Medical Center. Bollinger et al. suggest that the structure and location of the human appendix has been specifically modified for an adaptive function, namely for housing and preserving beneficial gut bacteria during certain pathogenic infections that otherwise would clear the bowel of all enteric bacteria. Evidently, individuals who had an appendix would have a selective advantage over those individuals who had either no appendix or who had a larger appendix with a larger opening. Presumably after, say, an epidemic of amoebic dysentery, individuals with such an optimally sized appendix would be better able to repopulate the gut with good bacteria and to recover (this is an adaptationist paraphrase; the authors don't use explicit evolutionary terms). The authors were led to this hypothesis after they noticed that human appendixes (yes, that's the proper plural for the anatomical structure) contained significant bacterial biofilms, which are notorious for allowing bacteria to withstand all manner of malign assaults, including vigorous mechanical cleaning and chlorine bleaching.
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Found it at the Thumb.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hot dawg, us'ns is gonna have some fun now!
