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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2007 : 18:17:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
I've said it before and I'll say it again: mercenaries are scum.
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Have you ever met one?
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Y'know, thinking about it, that's a good question. I really don't know. I kicked around a good part of the world for some 10 years and met a lot of foreign (to me) troops, some of them described as "irregulars," so it could be. But I was never around long enough to get to know any.
However, I do read history and pretty much keep up on world happenings. This is a pretty good description on the reliability of mercenaries.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 20:51:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Y'know, thinking about it, that's a good question. I really don't know. I kicked around a good part of the world for some 10 years and met a lot of foreign (to me) troops, some of them described as "irregulars," so it could be. But I was never around long enough to get to know any.
However, I do read history and pretty much keep up on world happenings. This is a pretty good description on the reliability of mercenaries.
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That article tells us why Laurie Nathan doesn't like mercenaries, but it amounts to an opinion piece with very little presented as actual evidence. Mr Nathan offers various arguments on how mercenaries are not subject to the same government controls as are regular forces, but the arguments don't stand up well to scrutiny. For example:
1. Executive control. The military and the use of military force are subject to strict executive control, flowing from the head of state to cabinet to the minister of defence to the chief of the armed forces.
Mercenaries are not subject to such control. |
Who says they're not? If mercenaries are hired by a government, then they are subject to whatever controls are placed on them by that government. If it's a non-government entity hiring them, then the government still has the ability to exercise their power to control them.
I'm not arguing for or against mercenaries. I don't know any mercenaries or have any personal interest one way or another. It just seems to me that actual mercenaries probably don't conform to the Hollywood B movie stereotypes, and that your typical Blackwater hired gun is more likely to be a souped-up security guard than a soldier for hire.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 02:43:04 [Permalink]
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Blackwater's behavior in Iraq pretty much speaks for them and the little we've been given to know about is probably only a percentage of the actual problem. And at the moment, it doesn't look like any of them are going to be charged & tried for anything. That, of course, could change. One hopes.
Historically, mercenaries have always been a lot more than security guards on steroids. They are often, even usually, ex-military and highly skilled at what they do. Unfortunatly, they only do it for money and when that well dries up, they're gone off to find another.
I am reminded of the fable of the man who caught a tiger by the tail. The tiger couldn't reach him (the teller didn't know much about cats), but he couldn't let go because then it certainly could. So there they stayed forever, a fool and his monster. As with most of the classic fables, there's a moral in there.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 09:24:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Blackwater's behavior in Iraq pretty much speaks for them and the little we've been given to know about is probably only a percentage of the actual problem. And at the moment, it doesn't look like any of them are going to be charged & tried for anything. That, of course, could change. One hopes. |
So what is Blackwater's behavior in Iraq? The one incident from September is still being investigated, but even if we assume the worst it doesn't necessarily follow that the behavior of one unit represents the whole company.
Originally posted by filthy
Historically, mercenaries have always been a lot more than security guards on steroids. They are often, even usually, ex-military and highly skilled at what they do. Unfortunatly, they only do it for money and when that well dries up, they're gone off to find another. |
I don't know about "historical mercenaries" outside of fiction. I'm sure I wouldn't hire anyone to carry an assault rifle and guard anything who wasn't ex-military, but then I don't see being highly skilled ex-military as being a bad thing.
I don't see any evidence that anyone does anything only for money any more than anyone else in any other profession. I'm sure the motivations of any individual are just as complex as the motives of you and I for doing anything. In the real world many people who become police officers, firefighters, bodyguards, security officers, etcetera are ex-military. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 09:46:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
Blackwater's behavior in Iraq pretty much speaks for them and the little we've been given to know about is probably only a percentage of the actual problem. And at the moment, it doesn't look like any of them are going to be charged & tried for anything. That, of course, could change. One hopes. |
So what is Blackwater's behavior in Iraq? The one incident from September is still being investigated, but even if we assume the worst it doesn't necessarily follow that the behavior of one unit represents the whole company. |
Actually, it does seem to represent part of a larger trend. Note some of the comments in Jeremy Scahill's Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army (Here's an interview with the author.) |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 10:09:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Actually, it does seem to represent part of a larger trend. Note some of the comments in Jeremy Scahill's Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army (Here's an interview with the author.)
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Honestly I don't think much of Jeremy Scahill. He seems to be a shrill fear-monger who raises alarms with little of substance to justify them.
I mean c'mon! Squawking because Blackwater was preventing looting in New Orleans? Who cares? Is there something sacred about US soil that it's wrong to hire armed security here?
The legit criticism there isn't that Blackwater was hired, but that very little else was done about Katrina. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 11:51:59 [Permalink]
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I don't know about "historical mercenaries" outside of fiction. I'm sure I wouldn't hire anyone to carry an assault rifle and guard anything who wasn't ex-military, but then I don't see being highly skilled ex-military as being a bad thing.
I don't see any evidence that anyone does anything only for money any more than anyone else in any other profession. I'm sure the motivations of any individual are just as complex as the motives of you and I for doing anything. In the real world many people who become police officers, firefighters, bodyguards, security officers, etcetera are ex-military. |
Nor do I. But I remind that Blackwater is a business, and as such, goes where the money is. The biggest difference between Blackwater and the mercenaries of yore is that these are home-grown. Their arrogance remains the same.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 12:07:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Honestly I don't think much of Jeremy Scahill. He seems to be a shrill fear-monger who raises alarms with little of substance to justify them.
I mean c'mon! Squawking because Blackwater was preventing looting in New Orleans? Who cares? Is there something sacred about US soil that it's wrong to hire armed security here?
The legit criticism there isn't that Blackwater was hired, but that very little else was done about Katrina. |
Uh, OK. I guess my point wasn't that this most recent incident wasn't the first one for which there has been controversy. And obviously the book I noted covered more than what happened in New Orleans, and there is certainly more out there than said book. It was just something off the top of my head that I'd recalled reading/hearing about. |
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Hillary and Blackwater
