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 Fish fin gene gave us the finger
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2007 :  18:32:05  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
From LiveScience, yet more genetic evidence of evolution:
A gene responsible for the development of fins in a primitive fish also helped shape the hands, feet and wings of every land animal alive today.

Researchers studying the Australian lungfish Neoceradotus found one of its fin-sprouting genes also guides the growth of digits in land vertebrates—those creatures with backbones.

The finding, to be detailed in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Experimental Zoology, adds to growing evidence that digits in humans and other land creatures are the equivalent of fin bones in fish. It is yet another example of evolution tweaking what already works to generate novel traits.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/18/2007 19:29:58

The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  23:48:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message
Fish fin gene gave us the finger


There must be a few jokes about Toronto drivers in there somewhere, but I'm not touching it.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  00:02:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by The Rat

Fish fin gene gave us the finger


There must be a few jokes about Toronto drivers in there somewhere, but I'm not touching it.
Seem to recall that in a recent survey, Canadians rated Toronto as the least polite city in your country. Which is to say, it's probably a lot politer than a bunch of of our cities, suburbs, little towns, empty wastes.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
50 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  06:09:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coelacanth a Private Message
Interesting development, but as usual I'm skeptical.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  06:33:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by Coelacanth

Interesting development, but as usual I'm skeptical.
What part(s) of that are you "skeptical" about, and in what ways, Coelacanth?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/21/2007 06:34:59
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
50 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  08:50:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coelacanth a Private Message
I've always had this skepticism for DNA/Gene comparison and what it brings more to the theory that can't be observed from a physical level.

I will admit that some of this skepticism does stem from my theistic upbringing.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  09:35:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Originally posted by Coelacanth

I've always had this skepticism for DNA/Gene comparison and what it brings more to the theory that can't be observed from a physical level.
If DNA didn't closely match morphology, modern evolutionary theory (and specifically common descent) would be very wrong. Because it does match very well, we can use features of DNA to tell us something about the past.

For example, humans and chimps share certain endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) that no other animals have - not even gorillas. This tells us that the species that acquired these ERVs were very recent - sometime between the split with gorillas and the split with chimps.

On the other hand, HOX genes are widespread and extremely similar throughout all animals (plants and fungi have their own, different HOX genes), suggesting that these genes are very, very old.

Morphology doesn't really suggest that spiders and dogs are related. HOX genes do.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  09:58:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
I've always had this skepticism for DNA/Gene comparison and what it brings more to the theory that can't be observed from a physical level.


I'm not certain what you mean by "physical level". Often, I've heard this in the past by many who doubt science to mean that which they can't see or understand directly. But I'm not going to assume that you mean the same thing, so would you please elaborate on this?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
50 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  11:16:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coelacanth a Private Message
Originally posted by Ricky
I'm not certain what you mean by "physical level". Often, I've heard this in the past by many who doubt science to mean that which they can't see or understand directly. But I'm not going to assume that you mean the same thing, so would you please elaborate on this?


No... it's just that some people deem the genetic evidences as clear proof of evolutions happenings and work, whereas I don't see them as much more that homology etc..
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  11:48:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
It would take quite a cosmic coincidence for two species to independently develop similar genes. Since we find such similarities in all different forms of life, I don't believe it to be rational to simply call it a cosmic coincidence. There must be something else going on. Evolution would be a perfect explanation for why this happens, and I see no other potential theory.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  11:51:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Originally posted by Coelacanth
I will admit that some of this skepticism does stem from my theistic upbringing.
Yes, scientific disinformation, especially about biology, is quite widespread in religious circles. I wish you the best in overcoming whatever lies with which were indoctrinated. That's the good part about science, indoctrination is never required. If you put in the effort to understand it, you can see that every scientific conclusion directly and logically follows from the best evidence available. You will never be asked to believe anything on faith. If anyone ever tells you that some science requires faith, then you can be certain that person has no understanding of science.

And I would suggest that you are not a skeptic, at least not as it is defined in skeptic circles. Rather, it seems you have deficiencies in your knowledge about evolutionary biology which keep you from fully embracing the theory of evolution. In which case, you should simply admit your ignorance on the subject. Many of the people here are more than knowledgeable enough and willing to answer any honest inquiry on the subject.

Best of luck to you. And welcome to the SFN, Coelacanth.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  13:11:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Evolution offers the only explanation for why the same history appears when we look at life morphologically and genetically. It is necessary for such a situation to exist if modern evolutionary theory is to be deemed correct.

Neither God nor any hyperintelligent "designer" would have had to use the same genes over and over again. Evolution didn't, however, have any choice in the matter, it could only use what it had, plus subtle modifications.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Big Daddy Bob
Sockpuppet/BANNED

6 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  14:01:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Big Daddy Bob a Private Message
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Coelacanth
I will admit that some of this skepticism does stem from my theistic upbringing.
Yes, scientific disinformation, especially about biology, is quite widespread in religious circles. I wish you the best in overcoming whatever lies with which were indoctrinated. That's the good part about science, indoctrination is never required. If you put in the effort to understand it, you can see that every scientific conclusion directly and logically follows from the best evidence available. You will never be asked to believe anything on faith. If anyone ever tells you that some science requires faith, then you can be certain that person has no understanding of science.

And I would suggest that you are not a skeptic, at least not as it is defined in skeptic circles. Rather, it seems you have deficiencies in your knowledge about evolutionary biology which keep you from fully embracing the theory of evolution. In which case, you should simply admit your ignorance on the subject. Many of the people here are more than knowledgeable enough and willing to answer any honest inquiry on the subject.

Best of luck to you. And welcome to the SFN, Coelacanth.




Could this be called strong-arming?
Quite rude if you ask me.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  14:34:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by Big Daddy Bob

Could this be called strong-arming?
Quite rude if you ask me.
This Looked polite to me, unless you consider politeness being a willingness to pretend agreement with ideas one not only doesn't share, but vigorously disagrees.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Big Daddy Bob
Sockpuppet/BANNED

6 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  14:55:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Big Daddy Bob a Private Message
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Big Daddy Bob

Could this be called strong-arming?
Quite rude if you ask me.
This Looked polite to me, unless you consider politeness being a willingness to pretend agreement with ideas one not only doesn't share, but vigorously disagrees.




The Kid is 13 years of age. It was strong-arming an argument.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2007 :  15:07:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by Big Daddy Bob

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Big Daddy Bob

Could this be called strong-arming?
Quite rude if you ask me.
This Looked polite to me, unless you consider politeness being a willingness to pretend agreement with ideas one not only doesn't share, but vigorously disagrees.




The Kid is 13 years of age. It was strong-arming an argument.
He was not subjected to anything but a strong argument. Do you prefer us to patronize young people?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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