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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  13:20:53  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  13:33:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
No. It's no more than a pile of crap put forth by the religious right in order to exert a little (more) control over women's bodies.

I would like to see an ultrasound of James Dobson's and/or Tony Perkin's head, or better yet, a microwave, to verify if there's anything in there.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  13:53:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Robb

Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
No. It's no more than a pile of crap put forth by the religious right in order to exert a little (more) control over women's bodies.

I would like to see an ultrasound of James Dobson's and/or Tony Perkin's head, or better yet, a microwave, to verify if there's anything in there.




So you are not for a mother and father having all the knowledge they can before the have an abortion? Isn't that what you speak against God for in the Garden of Eden? That God thinks knowledge is evil?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  14:23:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Robb

Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
No. It's no more than a pile of crap put forth by the religious right in order to exert a little (more) control over women's bodies.

I would like to see an ultrasound of James Dobson's and/or Tony Perkin's head, or better yet, a microwave, to verify if there's anything in there.




So you are not for a mother and father having all the knowledge they can before the have an abortion? Isn't that what you speak against God for in the Garden of Eden? That God thinks knowledge is evil?
If anyone desires knowledge, they can aquire it. I would not oppose a suggestion to the parents, assuming that both can be found, but I strongly oppose them being forced into it.

What does the myth of the Garden of Eden have to do with anything?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  14:36:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
And then:
So you are not for a mother and father having all the knowledge they can before the have an abortion?
Nice change-up there, Robb.

Mothers and fathers can look at all the ultrasound images they like, and getting all the knowledge they want, already, before aborting.

What business does the government have demanding that they look? Can they even be forced to look? Will this be happening in doctor's offices?


Will the doctors be paid extra by the government to hire muscle-bound nurses?

Honestly, as soon as the government forces people to view CAT scans of their cancers, they'll have the legal precedent to be able to force people to look at ultrasounds of zygotes.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  16:19:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By forcing people, I believe Robb means you are required to if you wish to get the abortion.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  17:26:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb
So you are not for a mother and father having all the knowledge they can before the have an abortion? Isn't that what you speak against God for in the Garden of Eden? That God thinks knowledge is evil?
I'm not sure that requiring a parent (or parents) to see an ultrasound necessarily enhances knowledge. There are myriad reasons why a woman may opt to have an abortion, but I'm not sure that they all think later that they made an ill-informed choice that could have been remedied with an ultrasound.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  19:33:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

By forcing people, I believe Robb means you are required to if you wish to get the abortion.
That may be the case, but how many abortions were actually prevented by abortion being illegal? If someone wants one without looking at an ultrasound, how hard will it be to find a doctor who'll do it?

Besides, what is Robb really talking about? According to the CDC in 2004...



...27.9% of all abortion seekers will see this six-week
embyro (the white speck in the black oval) or less...


...another 17.8% will see something like
this at seven weeks...


...another 14.9% will see this
at eight weeks...


...a further 17.1% will see this
at nine or ten weeks...


...and another 9.1% will see this
at eleven or twelve weeks.
So a full 86.8% of abortion seekers aren't going to see very much. Many of the ultrasounds, performed only shabbily because they'll be mandatory, will be of much worse quality. They certainly won't see anything as endearing as the below thumb-sucker:


(26 weeks, awwwwww...)
And that is, of course, the real reason for showing someone an ultrasound. It isn't to help them be more fully informed, because the people who seek abortions already know what's going on inside. Instead, you mandate showing ultrasounds for the psychological impact of seeing the baby, hoping that'll make people decide they can't "kill" it anymore. But if it's little more than an abstract smear of grainy white dots, it won't have that impact, so it's a bad idea to begin with.

And after all, if you're all for full information, then you also mandate that clinic workers and doctors tell the 45.7% of people seeking abortions at less than eight weeks that their blob of cells has no heartbeat or brain waves, and so isn't going to feel pain or discomfort as we know it during the procedure.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2007 :  21:31:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb asked:
Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?

I'd be opposed to anyone (government or otherwise) telling anyone they had to do such a thing.

WHy, Robb, do you think it is ok to mandate something like this when the images and data are freely available to those who want them?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  00:19:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be a bone-headed thing to require of parents. The only purpose would be for fundies to force an added inconvenience upon people who are almost certainly already in a difficult situation. Laymen are in no way qualified to read ultrasound graphics. Would the government then force both parents to become obstetricians, so they could intelligently evaluate what they see?

Or how about this: Anyone proselytizing another person should be forced to take their prospects on a tour of Heaven and Hell. Of course, that would be a silly and prejudicial trick.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  07:55:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

And after all, if you're all for full information, then you also mandate that clinic workers and doctors tell the 45.7% of people seeking abortions at less than eight weeks that their blob of cells has no heartbeat or brain waves, and so isn't going to feel pain or discomfort as we know it during the procedure.
As long as it is the truth.


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  10:54:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
And that is, of course, the real reason for showing someone an ultrasound. It isn't to help them be more fully informed, because the people who seek abortions already know what's going on inside. Instead, you mandate showing ultrasounds for the psychological impact of seeing the baby, hoping that'll make people decide they can't "kill" it anymore.
Exactly. This is so transparently an emotional ploy that I can't believe Robb has stooped to advocating it. Being "informed" doesn't required viewing an ultrasound. Robb doesn't want to inform women, he wants to control them.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  12:07:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

As long as it is the truth.
Some of the latest research seems to indicate that the pain part is, and then some, even if a heartbeat and brainwaves can usually be detected by seven weeks (not eight, as I'd said).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  13:54:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Dave W.
And that is, of course, the real reason for showing someone an ultrasound. It isn't to help them be more fully informed, because the people who seek abortions already know what's going on inside. Instead, you mandate showing ultrasounds for the psychological impact of seeing the baby, hoping that'll make people decide they can't "kill" it anymore.
Exactly. This is so transparently an emotional ploy that I can't believe Robb has stooped to advocating it. Being "informed" doesn't required viewing an ultrasound. Robb doesn't want to inform women, he wants to control them.
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. If you don't want to or cannot take cae of a child then you need to choose to not have sex.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  14:12:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plenty of women who choose abistence can still become pregnant.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  14:29:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Plenty of women who choose abistence can still become pregnant.
Abortions from rape are <1% (0.1% to 0.6%) of all abortions in America. 98% are from some kind of personal choice.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html#2

I am not talking about rape at this time since it is a small
fraction of abortions. I am talking about a choice women make to have sex.






Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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