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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2007 : 07:52:51
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So I was watching the home remodeling show called "Holmes on Homes", which is really wonderful by the way, and on one episode they needed to determine the location of the pipes which were buried in the yard. As always Mr. Holmes brings in the pros for that sort of thing. The guy came in with dowsing rods and seemed to use them to make a basic map of the underground piping. The rods would cross inwards when passing over a metal pipe, Im assuming due to magnetism. Has anyone else seen or heard of this or other non-water finding uses for the rods o' magic?
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2007 : 08:16:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
So I was watching the home remodeling show called "Holmes on Homes", which is really wonderful by the way, and on one episode they needed to determine the location of the pipes which were buried in the yard. As always Mr. Holmes brings in the pros for that sort of thing. The guy came in with dowsing rods and seemed to use them to make a basic map of the underground piping. The rods would cross inwards when passing over a metal pipe, Im assuming due to magnetism. Has anyone else seen or heard of this or other non-water finding uses for the rods o' magic?
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Oh yes. Back when I thought I could dowse, I located some pipes in just the same way. I used bent brazing rods, heh, and unconsiously, the locations of the well & the house. Hit 'em pretty close, too.
Here is the real deal on dowsing: Dowsing is the action of a person--called the dowser--using a rod, stick or other device--called a dowsing rod, dowsing stick, doodlebug (when used to locate oil) or divining rod--to locate such things as underground water, hidden metal, buried treasure, oil, lost persons or golf balls, etc. Since dowsing is not based upon any known scientific or empirical laws or forces of nature, it should be considered a type of divination and an example of magical thinking. The dowser tries to locate objects by occult means.
Map dowsers use a dowsing device, usually a pendulum, over maps to locate oil, minerals, persons, water, etc. However, the prototype of a dowser is the field dowser who walks around an area using a forked stick to locate underground water. When above water, the rod points downward. (Some dowsers use two rods. The rods cross when above water.) Various theories have been given as to what causes the rods to move: electromagnetic or other subtle geological forces, suggestion from others or from geophysical observations, ESP and other paranormal explanations, etc. Most skeptics accept the explanation of William Carpenter (1852). The rod moves due to involuntary motor behavior, which Carpenter dubbed ideomotor action.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 08:23:06 [Permalink]
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Well shouldnt we test this idea, it should be pretty easy to make up a jig which would eliminate any involuntary motor movements. We'll need to find a very level floor with pipes under it and nothing over it, then put the jig on a stable rolling cart (which is also level). Then just roll the cart slowly in the direction opposite the direction the dowsing rods are pointing to eliminate any motion caused by the forward movement.
Hmm, am I motivated enough?
Edit: Also it should be indoors or covered temorarily to eliminate wind. Hmm maybe I can get the Mythbusters to do it, though they are not very good at eliminating bias factors. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 12/21/2007 08:32:17 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2007 : 08:29:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well shouldnt we test this idea, it should be pretty easy to make up a jig which would eliminate any involuntary motor movements. We'll need to find a very level floor with pipes under it and nothing over it, then put the jig on a stable rolling cart (which is also level). Then just roll the cart slowly in the direction opposite the direction the dowsing rods are pointing to eliminate any motion caused by the forward movement.
Hmm, am I motivated enough?
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Won't work anyway. The rod(s) have to be hand-held so as the essence of the sought-for can infuse the body, causing them to bend/dip/swing & so forth. At least, that's the way it was explained to me -- ain't metaphysics lovely.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 08:33:34 [Permalink]
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| Well Im not sure everyone uses the metaphysics angle, the guy on the show seemed to indicate it was a purely scientific thing, ala magnetism. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 09:36:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well Im not sure everyone uses the metaphysics angle, the guy on the show seemed to indicate it was a purely scientific thing, ala magnetism.
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Not sure I've ever heard of the "magnetism" angle. Usually they claim it's the same as dousing for groundwater, but are instead picking up water flowing through the pipes. And what was he claiming was magnetized? The pipes certainly aren't. So was he claiming the dousing rods were? How would that work? Wouldn't their magnetic fields constantly keep them either snapping together or swinging apart? And why would the rods be magnetically attracted to a pipe buried deep underground but not his belt buckle? Or the change in his pocket? Or the telephone wires strung overhead?
No, I suspect what you saw was a load of credulous horse pucky presented without skepticism. According to Randi, who tested a lot in his day, most dousers are wholly sincere, but very few offer coherent explanations about why they can do what they claim do. "I don't know, I just know it works" is probably the most common explanation given. An otherwise sensible person who has been misled into thinking that dousing is an effective means of locating pipes will sometimes offer a half-hearted guess as to what physics might be operating ("Maybe it's something to do with magnets."), but otherwise appear disinterested in really exploring this seemingly magical phenomenon.
So what's really going on? Well, probably several things, most of them unconscious. The rods move because of the ideomotor effect, the same unconscious muscle movement that gives Ouija boards their eerie power. There are also many ways apart from dousing to locate pipes, everything from noticing a slight discoloration in the lawn to a dip in the topography to simply possessing a knowledge of how homes were built in relation to the water main in a particular neighborhood. Most of these guys could guess the location of a pipe to within a few feet even without the dousing rods, which in the end are really just props. Throw in a douser's propensity to remember startling hits and forget/explain away misses, and you have the recipe for why a discredited bit of woo still enjoys popularity in some segments of society. And television programs which uncritically pass on this nonsense certainly don't help the situation.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/21/2007 09:41:34 |
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Risendemonx
New Member
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 10:29:55 [Permalink]
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Pipes are often in predictable areas, and some will even have clues as to where they are (sprinkler heads, for instance). If this guy is a professional, then he likely knows about where the pipes should be, and uses the rods to "pinpoint" them. Of course, if the dowsing rods cross anywhere near the pipes, it counts as a hit. I was able to find this this double blind study done for JREF puting one particular dowser to the test by burying metal pipes, even with running water, and having the dowser find them. He registered 2 hits out of 24 trials at a predicted 88% probability.
I've heard of people dowsing for water, for metal, for oil, for minerals; just about everything you could think of underground. As a budding geophysicist, I don't think there is anything magnetic, or other subtle geological forces which could explain it. I believe that a physical force isn't needed to explain it, nor does one need a metephysical explaination. Just like ESP- it works when one has an educated guess, and ignores the misses.
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Dowsing for pipes
