Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Religion
 confusion
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  11:27:01  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
why do you people only talk about christianity, and i don't mean catholism or eastern christianity, and the bible, even though the bible versions you people keep using are the niv and nkjv, which history shows are perverted versions of the ancient greek manuscripts writen in Antioch, which were written by actual christian disciples and followers, and that technically the only one bible that actually does use the greek manuscripts without adding or subtracting a single word is the kjv, and i used the kjv when i was reading the article you people had about how the bible had bad fruits, and i saw that with the kjv the verses you used with the niv had opposite meanings. i'm just sayng that you people seem skeptic about only one thing, why don't talk about islam, judaism, wicca, bahai, hinduism, buddhism, communism and et cetera. Why?????

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  12:06:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that it is because Christianity has the most effect on us as individuals. As far as I know, virtually all of the membership here are from countries that have a preponderence of Christians, many of their leaders outrageous and some of them certifiable. But ok, I'm an equal opportunity atheist; what other belief system would you like to talk about?

And welcome to SFN!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1259 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  12:13:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, hoviariel, I would like to welcome you to SFN. You'll find if you stick around here you can learn a lot about science, debating techniques, and perhaps even religion.

Now, to address your questions:

It seems you have just finished reading our article The Bible's Bad Fruits, by Dawn Huxley and Tommy Huxley. Like many people, you seem to misunderstand the point of the article. It was merely to show that the typical "quote mining" style that some creationists have for debating "evolutionists" can go both ways. From the article,
The point is that the Bible can be subjected to a “pick and choose” format in the same way that creationists proof-text scientific journals, essays, articles and books about evolution. Any quote or quotes can be taken wildly out of context.
The same technique can be used with any version of the bible, in any language. In fact, this technique can be used on nearly anything, and it will still be wrong. That is the point.


Originally posted by hoviariel

why do you people only talk about christianity, and i don't mean catholism or eastern christianity, and the bible...
If you would look a little more, hoviariel, you would find that we don't "only talk about christianity [sic]" here, and that there are very few belief systems that escape our evaluation. Now that I've said that, however, I need to follow it up with another statement: the majority of people on this discussion board are in the United States. This means the most common, the most "in-your-face" religion is Christianity; since it is most commonly in the forefront for us, it gets the majority of our attention.
...even though the bible versions you people keep using are the niv and nkjv...
It would make a discussion much easier if you'd break up your thoughts a little more, rather than using one very long run-on sentence. Anyway, we most often use whichever bible is closest. Since every version of the bible is equally wrong to us, it really doesn't matter. If you'd rather we made a concerted effort to subject the KJV bible to our scrutiny, I'm sure we can oblige.
...which history shows are perverted versions of the ancient greek manuscripts writen in Antioch...
Do you have any evidence for this? I would love to see a link that discusses this scholastically.
...which were written by actual christian disciples and followers...
You are presupposing the existence of "actual christian [sic] disciples" here. I recommend you look through our archives at the "Did Jesus Really Exist?" forum topics:

Link to Forum Search results

...and that technically the only one bible that actually does use the greek manuscripts without adding or subtracting a single word is the kjv...
Are you claiming that there were no translation errors? Please provide evidence for your assertion.
...and i used the kjv when i was reading the article you people had about how the bible had bad fruits, and i saw that with the kjv the verses you used with the niv had opposite meanings.
Really? I would love to see what we got wrong, would you please show us?
i'm just sayng that you people seem skeptic about only one thing, why don't talk about islam, judaism, wicca, bahai, hinduism, buddhism, communism and et cetera. Why?????
We do talk about these other faiths; but, as I said above, we do not discuss them as much as we discuss Christianity because those other religions' believers do not directly affect our lives as much as Christianity's.
Was this really necessary?

Anyway, I encourage you to hang around here, and provide some evidence for your claims. Who knows, you might change somebody's mind!
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  12:42:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
B10 said:
First, hoviariel, I would like to welcome you to SFN. You'll find if you stick around here you can learn a lot about science, debating techniques, and perhaps even religion.

And, hopefully, basic grammar.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  13:08:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi, hovariel. To follow up on B10's point-- you wrote:
even though the bible versions you people keep using are the niv and nkjv, which history shows are perverted versions of the ancient greek manuscripts writen in Antioch, which were written by actual christian disciples and followers, and that technically the only one bible that actually does use the greek manuscripts without adding or subtracting a single word is the kjv
This just isn't correct. It sounds like you're assuming that the Bible (and here, it's clear you have in mind just the Christian New Testament) was written in once place at one time. However, it is certain that the various New Testament books were written by different people at different times and different places.

I'm curious, like B10, about your assertion re the KJV and its superior translation of the Greek. There are several recent books on the subject, but I haven't gotten around to reading them. Perhaps you could help us out?

Anyhow, welcome to SFN, and do please stick around!
Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2007 :  17:03:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hoviariel wrote:
why do you people only talk about christianity,
What do you mean "you people"? This is a discussion forum with a lot of people on if with different views on things. We talk about what interests us. Since most of us are Americans and some Europeans, of course our religious conversations are going to be dominated by Christianity. You are a member now. If you want to talk about something else, start a conversation about it.

And incidentally, Christianity is a pretty big topic. It is the largest religion in the world with numerous mainline sects such as Catholicism. Why are you lumping them all together? I mostly like to criticize Catholicism 'cause I was raised Catholic. But that's just me.

i used the kjv when i was reading the article you people had about how the bible had bad fruits, and i saw that with the kjv the verses you used with the niv had opposite meanings.
Why aren't you bringing this up in that thread?

i'm just sayng that you people seem skeptic about only one thing, why don't talk about islam, judaism, wicca, bahai, hinduism, buddhism, communism and et cetera. Why?????
We don't talk about Islam? You mean like in these recent topics:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8597&SearchTerms=islam
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8741&SearchTerms=islam
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8636&SearchTerms=islam

I imagine that minority religions don't come up much because they don't raise much of a stink and therefore don't invite much criticism. Although I remember us recently discussing Scientology. If you bring up any claims of the supernatural, I think you will find that many members will express skepticism.

Also, religion is only one area. There are conversations on a multitude of other topics all over this forum, especially addressing politics and social issues.

Also, writing in full sentences would make your post much easier to understand.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  03:26:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
now i'm not much of a bible scholar, so i'm gonna answer the questions one by one as much as i can.

when i was reading the bad apples of the bible i used a kjv bible and i saw that the verses you had used from the niv were different from the kjv's
like the pornography one, in the kjv it says the girl had many paramours, which tissue was as a donkey, and issue as a horse, but the niv said genitals and emission.
and almost all of them were a bit misundertood, like the communism one, the kjv showed a different other verse for it which shows acceptance, and a lot of you say the verses as literal minings, like the drug culture ones, the title of the verses was called "cup of wrath" or something, and since we can't actually have a cup of wrath, the verses were actually metaphorical, and lastlyi think that you don't actually read the verses, i mean read the verse, but you don't see what comes before or after it.

one last thing : the greek manuscripts i was talking about were the textus receptus, you can check it in wikipedia
Edited by - hoviariel on 12/30/2007 06:29:27
Go to Top of Page

hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  03:42:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i would also like to add that i use my information from
christiananswers.net
jesus-is-savior.com
chick.com

and all three use history, science, critical thinking, and logic, rathar than just using faith and blind belief
Go to Top of Page

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  06:52:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel
when i was reading the bad apples of the bible i used a kjv bible and i saw that the verses you had used from the niv were different from the kjv's
like the pornography one, in the kjv it says the girl had many paramours, which tissue was as a donkey, and issue as a horse, but the niv said genitals and emission.
Hi, Hovariel. I have some questions for you, none of which are meant to be condescending, but which may help us all understand. In particular, how old are you? And is English your native language? The KJV and the NIV are saying the exact same thing.

If you're younger or otherwise not so familiar with English, you might not realize that "paramours" is just a fancy (seventeenth century) way to say "lovers," and that "issue" can mean the same thing as "emission."

If you want, we can go to the original Hebrew but I am 100% certain we'd find that this is correct.

And in any event, your objection to the use of NIV over KJV is misguided. The article in question, The Bible's Bad Fruits, is about a debate tactic called "quote-mining" which Boron10 talked about in his reply to you above.

Quote-mining is when a person takes a quote from an opponent out of context so that it sounds like the opponent is, in fact, supporting you. In a simplified example, supposed you said once:
To reject God is foolish, and will lead to an eternity in hell"
And the suppose I clipped the sentence and walked around quoted you as saying "God is foolish"!

So the point of the article you read was to show that quote-mining can be used to support all sorts of things, and is a poor debate tactic.

I hope this helped!
Go to Top of Page

Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  07:35:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

i would also like to add that i use my information from
christiananswers.net
jesus-is-savior.com
chick.com

and all three use history, science, critical thinking, and logic, rathar than just using faith and blind belief

That is actually quite funny. Or sad. Take your pick.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
Go to Top of Page

hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  07:57:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
wait, what have creationists done with mining?

oh and for hawks, what do you mean by "his is actually quite funny or sad" , because i only took the textus receptus part from the sites
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  08:17:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having too much time on my hands, I welcomed the opportunity to once again visit Jack Chick's site. He's long been a favorite of mine, has our Jacky, but I've not checked him out for some time.

I note that his shtick is still pretty much the same.
Theme: Mormonism

Crusaders Comic Volume 18

The validity of Mormonism stands or falls on the testimony of Joseph Smith. Here is his story, revealing the man for what he really was. Calling himself the “second Muhammad,” Smith was an occultic opportunist, fond of the ladies (lots of them!), who blended Masonic rituals into his temple rituals.

The story is a fascinating one, filled with incredible quotes from Smith himself. After people read this illustrated book, they will not be vulnerable to the Mormon recruiters!


Chick's a lot of fun, but really hoviariel, don't take him too seriously. That way lies madness.

The other two are pretty much the same without the amusement value. Here's Christian Answers take on The Golden Compass, which I am currently reading. It's not in Harry Potter's class, but quite good.
Alethiometer. It tells the truth. As for how to read it, you'll have to learn by yourself.”

“The Golden Compass” is being marketed to children. Your child watches the movie, wants the books, reads the books and gets a whole new perspective of God, which could doom him eternally. Don't be deceived. The movie is bait for the books. And that makes me more concerned than Phillip Pullman going on record as an atheist. What he says will fade away, but what he has written will remain for unsuspecting minds to read for generations to come. Our work as Christian parents is cut out for us.

Christian parents are no stranger to The Fight, and, although it seems a shame, we must take to the task once again, we have The Word as our two-edged sword.
I have never understood why these people insist upon attacking works of fiction. Are they so insecure in their faith that works written for amusement threaten them?

Jesus-is-Savior attacks just about everything and prompts me to ask: Are you a Young Earth Creationist? I'm sure that I already know, but just for the record....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/30/2007 08:20:31
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  08:19:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

wait, what have creationists done with mining?
Go check out The Quote Mine Project to see what creationists have done.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  08:39:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

In particular, how old are you?
In his profile under occupation, he writes "to young to get one."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  08:40:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes i am , but i am not a fanatic, and i ,for one, need to ask, is it logical to think that the universe came by chance and that our minds, which are more complex than the most computer, or genetics, or how a single cell can become a multicellular organism are all by chance.
oh and by the way, charles darwin once said:

"NOT ONE CHANGE OF SPECIES INTO ANOTHER IS ON RECORD. We cannot
prove that a single species has ever changed." - Charles Darwin

and why is it that there is no record of a human civilization dating back more than 5K

andt to answer your question about why christian attack fictional things like golden compass or harry potter

Monkey see, monkey do
if a one year old child say a porno movie or a movie filled with blood gore where the protagonist is killing everyone and is likes killing, won't those scenes leave a crucial effect on the child, it might become more violent or more promiscious, and if the characters in the movie are cartoons or cute little creatures, won't it attract the child and cause him or her to become those characters
Edited by - hoviariel on 12/30/2007 08:58:02
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  09:01:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

yes i am , but i am not a fanatic, and i ,for one, need to ask, is it logical to think that the universe came by chance and that our minds, which are more complex than the most computer, or genetics, or how a single cell can become a multicellular organism are all by chance.
But that's an illogical dichotomy. "All by chance" is simply wrong, even without any divine help.
oh and by the way, charles darwin once said:

"NOT ONE CHANGE OF SPECIES INTO ANOTHER IS ON RECORD. We cannot
prove that a single species has ever changed." - Charles Darwin
And that was 150 years ago. So what? Darwin knew nothing of genetics. We know more than Darwin did, so we can point out his mistakes. Big deal. That Darwin quote was correct, but no longer is. And whether Darwin was right or wrong has no effect on the standing of modern evolutionary theory.
and why is it that there is no record of a human civilization dating back more than 5K
There's plenty of evidence for civilization over 10,000 years ago. Where did you come up with this "fact?"

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.48 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000