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Lyzandra Daria
New Member
32 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2008 : 15:05:30
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http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/breaking_news/267874
U.S. District Judge John Shabaz says the school's policy of turning down funding requests for activities involving prayer, worship and proselytizing is unconstitutional.
He says the policy violates students' First Amendment rights to free speech.
The ruling comes in a case involving a Catholic student group that filed suit to try to get student fees for things like printing Lenten booklets, running Evangelical training camps and hosting spiritual retreats.
The university had argued that reimbursing the group for those activities would violate the separation of church and state.
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I've been reading some of the posts. This seemed a general enough category for this article.
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"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition" Alexander Hodge
Regards, Lyz |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 15:23:20 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, Lyzandra Daria!
Sure looks to me that the Judge Shabaz is dead wrong in his interpretation of the Constitution, saying free speech trumps freedom of religion in this case. The Catholic Church has a long tradition of forcing governments to pay for its evangelistic activity, but no religious activity should be funded by taxpayers.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 15:33:28 [Permalink]
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Hi, Lyzandra Daria. Welcome to SFN.
The news you linked shouldn't be too much of a shock. I'm sure this isn't the first religious/Christian club to receive university funding for student activities.
In fact, I think it's acceptable to a degree for universities to fund all sorts of student groups. The real question is how they treat, say, a Wiccan club, or some such. And I am sort of uncomfortable with the "proselytizing" bit. It's one thing to fund some worship event. It's another thing to fund Christians making an effort to convert people. The Christians can do that on their own dime. |
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Lyzandra Daria
New Member
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 15:46:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Welcome to SFN, Lyzandra Daria!
Sure looks to me that the Judge Shabaz is dead wrong in his interpretation of the Constitution, saying free speech trumps freedom of religion in this case. The Catholic Church has a long tradition of forcing governments to pay for its evangelistic activity, but no religious activity should be funded by taxpayers.
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Thanx for the greets...The U of W does receive state funding. Big deal this fis yr was the funding for student loans not being approved before classes started. |
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition" Alexander Hodge
Regards, Lyz |
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Lyzandra Daria
New Member
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 15:49:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Hi, Lyzandra Daria. Welcome to SFN.
The news you linked shouldn't be too much of a shock. I'm sure this isn't the first religious/Christian club to receive university funding for student activities.
In fact, I think it's acceptable to a degree for universities to fund all sorts of student groups. The real question is how they treat, say, a Wiccan club, or some such. And I am sort of uncomfortable with the "proselytizing" bit. It's one thing to fund some worship event. It's another thing to fund Christians making an effort to convert people. The Christians can do that on their own dime.
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Thanks for greetings.
Shock? Unfortunately not so much...disappointed. I don't want my tax money spent on this tripe. |
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition" Alexander Hodge
Regards, Lyz |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 17:06:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyzandra Daria
Thanks for greetings.
Shock? Unfortunately not so much...disappointed. I don't want my tax money spent on this tripe. |
Well, lots of people coudl come up with stuff they don't want their tax dollars supporting. Be it via a university funding school groups or a government funding Raptors.
Just on a basic level, I don't see much wrong with a university giving a few hundred bucks to a student group for pizza and soft drinks be it for Bible study, watching ST:TNG, or playing chess.
The issue is obviously complex, but I'm not immediately inclined to see such things as necessarily bad. |
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Lyzandra Daria
New Member
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 17:33:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Lyzandra Daria
Thanks for greetings.
Shock? Unfortunately not so much...disappointed. I don't want my tax money spent on this tripe. |
Well, lots of people coudl come up with stuff they don't want their tax dollars supporting. Be it via a university funding school groups or a government funding Raptors.
Just on a basic level, I don't see much wrong with a university giving a few hundred bucks to a student group for pizza and soft drinks be it for Bible study, watching ST:TNG, or playing chess.
The issue is obviously complex, but I'm not immediately inclined to see such things as necessarily bad.
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Could I suggest a field trip to Saudi Arabia? With or without suicide vests |
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition" Alexander Hodge
Regards, Lyz |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 17:48:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, lots of people could come up with stuff they don't want their tax dollars supporting. Be it via a university funding school groups or a government funding Raptors.
Just on a basic level, I don't see much wrong with a university giving a few hundred bucks to a student group for pizza and soft drinks be it for Bible study, watching ST:TNG, or playing chess. |
Well, those activities are not equivalent when viewed by the light of the establishment clause. As you say, the difference is one constitutes religious proselytizing. Religious organizations already get out of paying taxes, so asking for additional government tax money to fund their religious activities is beyond outrageous. The whole point of not taxing them is to allow them to be free of governmental meddling and rules. If they want government funds, as filtered through state universities, then they damn well better not balk when the school demands they adhere to non-discrimination policies. But how much you want to bet that these "faith-based" organizations want to keep the free cash and their "no fags or atheists" policies as well?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 18:30:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyzandra Daria
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Lyzandra Daria
Thanks for greetings.
Shock? Unfortunately not so much...disappointed. I don't want my tax money spent on this tripe. |
Well, lots of people coudl come up with stuff they don't want their tax dollars supporting. Be it via a university funding school groups or a government funding Raptors.
Just on a basic level, I don't see much wrong with a university giving a few hundred bucks to a student group for pizza and soft drinks be it for Bible study, watching ST:TNG, or playing chess.
The issue is obviously complex, but I'm not immediately inclined to see such things as necessarily bad.
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Could I suggest a field trip to Saudi Arabia? With or without suicide vests |
Ugh. I've been to the Middle East plenty of times, so I don't need the field trip. And as an atheist, I obviously don't think too highly of religion. However, I also don't have an immediate revulsion to the idea that some kids organizing as a religious club under the auspices of a university should be able to get student club funds just like any other club. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 18:50:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, those activities are not equivalent when viewed by the light of the establishment clause. As you say, the difference is one constitutes religious proselytizing. |
This has little to do with Congress establishing a religion.| Religious organizations already get out of paying taxes, so asking for additional government tax money to fund their religious activities is beyond outrageous. The whole point of not taxing them is to allow them to be free of governmental meddling and rules. |
The US Chess Federation runs the US Chess Trust, which is a tax exempt 501(c)(3) organization. So I suppose university chess clubs don't need any money as student organizations, either??| If they want government funds, as filtered through state universities, then they damn well better not balk when the school demands they adhere to non-discrimination policies. But how much you want to bet that these "faith-based" organizations want to keep the free cash and their "no fags or atheists" policies as well? |
Well, I largely agree. And I know of, for instance, homosexuals, how are in university religious clubs. That may not be the norm, but obviously it happens.
And I don't know about you, HH, but on MY Friday nights as an undergrad, I had better things to do than drink soda and do Bible study. So I would find little value going to a university Bible study club, even if it meant free pizza.
Look, the last thing I thought I'd be doing here at SFN is defending a court ruling that gives some leeway to religion. Really. I'm not a fan of religion at all. But it seems clear that college is in part a vehicle to foster social interaction and human development outside the class room through clubs and organizations. And given that most people in this country (indeed, in the world) have some religious beliefs, then let college be a place to explore them. One can hope that the stark contrast between the intellectual life of the classroom and the vapid faith-based reasoning of some Bible study will be enough to draw some luke-warm Christians away from their miserable religion! |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 10:31:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
There is a non-discrimination policy in place, but it isn't that individual groups must not discriminate based upon religion. It's that anyone who wants to may start a group and receive funding.
Universities recognize the importance of student organizations as a form of entertainment, unity, and intellectual development. Students may get together and receive funding for any shared interest, academic or not. That religion is not excluded from this actually supports 1st amendment. |
So no matter what the goals or message of the group, the University has no say whatever, it just has to hand over the money? If a group of students wanted to start a White Power organization with the aim of getting rid of minority professors, then the school must fund them or be accused of trampling over their first amendment rights? Nonsense. I am really having a difficult time understanding how you can make the leap from "no free money" to "oppression of free speech."
Frankly, I don't see how being ordered to blindly fund any group with its hand out constitutes a "non-discrimination policy." The University should discrimination against groups that themselves discriminate. There is absolutely no reason why there needs to be state sponsored intolerance or bigotry. And any groups unwilling to have the government dictate policy to them have a very simple solution at their disposal--don't take public tax money. Then they can do whatever the hell they wish.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/18/2008 10:31:45 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 11:15:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Look, the last thing I thought I'd be doing here at SFN is defending a court ruling that gives some leeway to religion. Really. I'm not a fan of religion at all. But it seems clear that college is in part a vehicle to foster social interaction and human development outside the class room through clubs and organizations. And given that most people in this country (indeed, in the world) have some religious beliefs, then let college be a place to explore them. One can hope that the stark contrast between the intellectual life of the classroom and the vapid faith-based reasoning of some Bible study will be enough to draw some luke-warm Christians away from their miserable religion!
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I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Cune. Should Universities allow student-led religious groups to meet on campus? Book time to use a classroom? Meet in the non-denominational chapel? Sure, sure, and fine. Where I draw the line is when state funds are used to print and distribute propaganda literature for sectarian religious organizations. The government has no business enmeshing itself in religion to that degree. It can't be seen as anything but government endorsement of specific religions and rank favoritism. If you don't think so, just imagine the political firestorm when the Rastafarians come knocking for their piece of the pie. Or imagine the community's reaction when it gets out that a "liberal" University provided financial support to witches and Satan worshipers.
This is just a bad, bad road to go down.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/18/2008 11:16:46 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 11:59:11 [Permalink]
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Humbert says:| Frankly, I don't see how being ordered to blindly fund any group with its hand out constitutes a "non-discrimination policy." The University should discrimination (sic) against groups that themselves discriminate. There is absolutely no reason why there needs to be state sponsored intolerance or bigotry. |
This reasoning states that most Fundamentalist Christian religions, Islam, Catholicism, Scientology, Atheism, Conservatives, Liberals, Environmentalists, and so on should all be denied funding. All discriminate to one degree or another, if only in requiring a certain set of ideological convictions in order to belong to the group, and denying membership to those that don't hold such convictions.
So specifically, what groups should receive such funding? |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 12:10:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
This reasoning states that most Fundamentalist Christian religions, Islam, Catholicism, Scientology, Atheism, Conservatives, Liberals, Environmentalists, and so on should all be denied funding. |
No, just religious organizations.
| So specifically, what groups should receive such funding? |
Secular ones willing to abide by the University's non-discrimination policies.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/18/2008 12:17:20 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 12:28:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Look, the last thing I thought I'd be doing here at SFN is defending a court ruling that gives some leeway to religion. Really. I'm not a fan of religion at all. But it seems clear that college is in part a vehicle to foster social interaction and human development outside the class room through clubs and organizations. And given that most people in this country (indeed, in the world) have some religious beliefs, then let college be a place to explore them. One can hope that the stark contrast between the intellectual life of the classroom and the vapid faith-based reasoning of some Bible study will be enough to draw some luke-warm Christians away from their miserable religion!
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I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Cune. Should Universities allow student-led religious groups to meet on campus? Book time to use a classroom? Meet in the non-denominational chapel? Sure, sure, and fine. Where I draw the line is when state funds are used to print and distribute propaganda literature for sectarian religious organizations. The government has no business enmeshing itself in religion to that degree. It can't be seen as anything but government endorsement of specific religions and rank favoritism. If you don't think so, just imagine the political firestorm when the Rastafarians come knocking for their piece of the pie. Or imagine the community's reaction when it gets out that a "liberal" University provided financial support to witches and Satan worshipers.
This is just a bad, bad road to go down. |
Yeah, I didn't like the proselytizing bit, either. But it was really a short blurb and I don't know the whole story. I guess I don't mind money going to a group of like-minded individuals for some social gathering centered around their interests be they chess players, Star Trek fans, or people who believe the Bible.
I was in student government, and most of the money we doled out to clubs was small. A few hundred bucks to off-set the costs of bringing in a speaker, or for monthly pizza-and-soda for some club meeting, or whatever.
But there are lines in funding a religious groups. I don't know the particulars of this case. Perhaps it is going too far. |
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Judge errs
