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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 23:40:00 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
I am afraid you are beating a dead jackass. Mr.Just Me Alone is a self-deluded woo-woo who knows nothing about electrical theory, electromagnetism, current induction, Faraday's Laws, Lenz's Law, The Laws of Thermodynamics, or Murphy's Law, for that matter. I doubt that he ever studied high school physics, certainly nothing at the university level. He has stated that he knows less than nothing, and appears to be quite proud of it.
He is oleaginously indulgent of "what "we" don't know" without a clue of what we do know. He defends, in stentorian tones, his noble Open Mind, which is so open that it is empty! He offers a brave, quixotic defense of crackpot conceptualists who labor for years reinventing the square wheel! This time, a square wheel with magnets tacked on!
Justme,me,me is an ignorant dreamer whose romantic rushes of "if we just believe, all is possible" completely blind him to the need to be informed about what he advocates. He really does not understand your simple and apt analogy, Dave, because his will to believe bullshit prevents his mind from utilizing simple logic.
"I know nothing about the science"! Indeed. That is obvious! So why not become a little informed before taking an asinine position of support for an extremely unlikely event. If he is old enough to have been literate in 1989 (which I doubt), I am sure that our esteemed seer of sagacity was certain that Fleischman and Pons had captured the sun in their University garage in Utah, and that Platinum futures were going ballistic.
Barnum and Randi were right...."There's a sucker born every minute, and two cons waiting to fleece him! Thane may not be a charlatan, just confused! I'm not so sure about Sean´ McCarthy and his Perpetual Perfect Steorn, which had the >U loonies and their Website of Wonders all agog back in 2006. I'm still waiting for that Answer to All the Universe's Problems to materialize and commercialize. Wonder what Just Me, Myself and I has to say about that flop!
Why don't you ask him, Dave? He's not talking to me for some reason!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2008 : 03:03:38 [Permalink]
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I skipped by page #3 due to someone's seven-foot-long link -- there's no way I'm going struggle through that. This thread isn't interesting enough to warrant the effort.
So here again is a quick & easy way to put up a long link without screwing up the page format: Tinyurl. | Are you sick of posting URLs in emails only to have it break when sent causing the recipient to have to cut and paste it back together? Then you've come to the right place. By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires. |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 07:21:28 [Permalink]
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Got to thinking about it and was reminded that very few people really know very much about the various confidence ripoffs that go on virtually every day. I know a little because I am fascinated by the subtleties of imaginative, human knavery. So, just for the hell of it, and to perhaps glim some of the human knavery, imaginative & mundane, that I don't know about (there‘s a'plenty of it, believe me!), I Wikied it:
Vulnerability to confidence tricks
Persons of any level of intelligence are vulnerable to deception by experienced con artists. Confidence tricks exploit human weaknesses like greed, dishonesty, vanity, but also virtues like honesty, compassion, or a naïve expectation of good faith on the part of the con artist.
Just as there is no typical profile for swindlers, neither is there one for their victims. Virtually anyone can fall prey to fraudulent crimes. …
Certainly victims of high-yield investment frauds may possess a level of greed which exceeds their caution as well as a willingness to believe what they want to believe. However, not all fraud victims are greedy, risk-taking, self-deceptive individuals looking to make a quick dollar. Nor are all fraud victims naive, uneducated, or elderly.[2]
Confidence tricksters often rely on the greed and dishonesty of the mark, who may attempt to out-cheat the con artist, only to discover that he or she has been manipulated into losing from the very beginning. This is such a general principle in confidence tricks that there is a saying among con men that "you can't cheat an honest man."[3]
Nevertheless, some tricks depend on the honesty of the victim. In a common scam, as part of an apparently legitimate transaction, the victim is sent a worthless check, which the victim then deposits. The victim is then urged to forward the apparent value of the check to the trickster as cash, possibly keeping a small portion of the money as a commission, which they may do before discovering the check bounces. Another fashionable scenario (as of 2006) has the victim recruited as a "financial agent" to collect "business debts". Paper checks are not always involved: funds may be transferred electronically from another victim.
Sometimes con men rely on naive individuals who put their confidence in get-rich-quick schemes, such as "too good to be true" investments. It may take years for the wider community to discover that such investment schemes are bogus. By the time they are discovered, many people may have lost their life savings to something in which they have been persuaded to invest.
At this point, as I have no sound evidence, far be it from me to suggest that Thane is running a variation on one of the more complicated, investment cons, however, I can't help being reminded of the Ponzi schemes, therapeutic magnets, and the Q-Ray nonsense (some folks'll believe anything! Yeesh!  ).
What is about magnets that cause so many to lose at least some of their grip on reality? Magnets are really neat, of course, and very useful. I have a fairly large, strong one on my loading bench to help keep track of small parts -- it has saved me many hours of hunting for lost screws & such. But sometimes people become all but irrational over them -- some years back, a nationally known shoe company made quite a bit of money advertising & selling shoes with ‘therapeutic' magnets in them, until Randi put paid to it.
Of course, electric motors work on magnetic principles. If there were to be a modification, it would have to involve magnetism -- or electromagnetism to be more precise. And thus, my nasty, suspicious and even cynical mind begins to wonder…. whaddafuck?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 09:14:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I skipped by page #3 due to someone's seven-foot-long link -- there's no way I'm going struggle through that. This thread isn't interesting enough to warrant the effort.
So here again is a quick & easy way to put up a long link without screwing up the page format: Tinyurl. | Are you sick of posting URLs in emails only to have it break when sent causing the recipient to have to cut and paste it back together? Then you've come to the right place. By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires. |
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I fixed the link filthy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 12:21:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
I skipped by page #3 due to someone's seven-foot-long link -- there's no way I'm going struggle through that. This thread isn't interesting enough to warrant the effort.
So here again is a quick & easy way to put up a long link without screwing up the page format: Tinyurl. | Are you sick of posting URLs in emails only to have it break when sent causing the recipient to have to cut and paste it back together? Then you've come to the right place. By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires. |
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I fixed the link filthy...
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Many thanks; I'll check it out & see what I missed!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 19:50:39 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| What is about magnets that cause so many to lose at least some of their grip on reality? Magnets are really neat, of course, and very useful. I have a fairly large, strong one on my loading bench to help keep track of small parts -- it has saved me many hours of hunting for lost screws & such. But sometimes people become all but irrational over them -- some years back, a nationally known shoe company made quite a bit of money advertising & selling shoes with ‘therapeutic' magnets in them, until Randi put paid to it |
I spent some time in Japan a few years ago, and one of the more interesting things I ran into was the Japanese obsession with magnets! Magnets are everywhere! Magnetic shoes and socks, magnetic caps and hats, magnetic jock straps and brassieres and belts and bracelets! They have magnetized food and magnetized drinks, magnetic laxatives and magnetic paint! There is a company called Nikko that produces and distributes over 1000 different magnetic products, some of them unbelievable. They have tried for years to peddle their attractive amusements in the US, but the vast masses of retards in our dear country have not been pulled to purchase them, for some reason! (Probably Japanese marketing methods which are largely unintelligible to Americans!)
I am fascinated by magnets. With the advent of superpowered neodymnium available for reasonable prices, I have collected a bunch of shapes and sizes. They are hellishly difficult to store! You can't get one anywhere close to another without non-ferrous separation. Once a large flat (+) surface is in contact with another large flat (-) surface, they are literally inseparable without destruction of one of them - which is easy, they're brittle as hell! I play with them frequently; Queeg a big ball with a tiny ball (you can't get two big balls apart), do magic tricks (magical tabletop movement of trinkets caused by moving a large magnet under the table), stick to your skin (conceal one in your hand or crook of your elbow and magically stick an innocuous ball or cube to the other side of your arm or elbow, etc. All kinds of things appropriate for a six year old!
Come to think of it, the Japanese are right. I do feel better after being around powerful magnets! I'm getting a couple of big ones right now......! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 02/18/2008 19:52:51 |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 23:46:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And then I see this week's What's New:1. PERPETUUM MOBILE: THIS YEAR LIKE EVERY YEAR.
I probably missed a few, but I estimate that every year I see about five perpetual motion machine claims. You may recall Steorn, the Dublin company that assembled a jury of scientists to evaluate its 2006 claim of generating free energy from "rotating magnets" (WN 25 Aug 06). In 2007 the company went belly-up. The first one this year is the Perepiteia invented by Thane Heins of Almonte, Ontario, who fits the mold perfectly. The 46-year old Heins is not scientist; he dropped out of an electronics program, but earned a chef's diploma. The secret? "Rotating magnets." His wife took the children and left over his obsession with Perepiteia. "I have mild dyslexia and don't do well in math," Heins told the Toronto Star, "so I don't do well in school." But wait, two weeks ago an MIT Electrical Engineering Professor, Marcus Zahn agreed to view a demonstration. Heins held a permanent magnet a few centimeters from an induction motor - and it speeded up. Wow! The Toronto Star contacted Zahn, who said it surprised him. WN is trying to reach Zahn. And Heins is somehow unique... at least according to someone ignorant of the field.
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Okay, I get it. Y'all are too cool for school on the whole perpetual motion thing. That's OK, lots of people are, some of them really smart. Of course nobody relevant is actually calling the thing perpetual motion, a point that seemed to be taken here, briefly, right up until the above was posted as something...new? Salient? Important? Sorry you weren't in the loop, Bob.
Look, to say I'm advocating for anything other than a reasonable approach to this is for lack of a better word, stupid. I am honestly and seriously baffled by some of you. I do not understand how you're choosing your sources of information or organizing it in your head. I mean a crackpot scale? He gets more points now being lousy in math Dave. You're keeping a running tally I hope. It's going to be pretty important, now that you know he knows how to cook too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 04:46:11 [Permalink]
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Just Me.....
| Okay, I get it. Y'all are too cool for school on the whole perpetual motion thing. That's OK, lots of people are, some of them really smart. Of course nobody relevant is actually calling the thing perpetual motion, a point that seemed to be taken here, |
The man is claiming potential energy output greater than energy input, the difference being added EMF. This constitutes an "Over Unity" phenomenon. If it did not, the peculiar folks at overunity.com would not be wetting their boxers over it.
"Over Unity" is perpetual motion, among other things. Any mechanical or electrical device, utilizing thermodynamic principles in it's operation, that produced more energy of any form than the input energy that allowed it to operate, would be capable of operating forever, barring mechanical breakdown of it's components. It only has to produce enough additional energy to overcome the friction or resistance losses inherent in it's construction to become a "perpetual motion machine"
Electric motors driving generators of various sorts have been hypothesized by dreamers as potential PM machines almost since the invention of the electric motor, a compendium of work by Michael Faraday in 1821, Peter Barlow in 1822 and William Sturgeon in 1832. The electric motor as developed today is extremely efficient, delivering mechanical energy well over 95% of the electrical energy required to operate it. It is for this reason that PM enthusiasts have attempted numerous times to devise electric motor driven machines that produced slightly more energy than that needed to drive the motor.
Thane's coils on a wheel are a primitive form of electric generator but not basically different from a highly efficient modern generator or alternator. The "EMF" that he speaks of is produced by both. If EMF from his wheel coils does in fact cause the driving motor to increase it's RPM's, the same effect could be accomplished with an efficient modern generator, causing the motor to run ever faster as it's increased output of rotational mechanical energy would speed up the generator which would then provide more electrical energy to the motor...etc., etc. Obviously, the apparatus would self-destruct from centrifigal force, heat from friction, etc. if not curbed, So bleed off the excess electricity to do other work, leaving just enough to keep the motor running on its own generated power, and you have "free energy" - the Holy Grail of the "Over Unity" delusion.
The "Over Unity' tinkerers are of the hope that enough EMF feedback into Thane's motor would cause sufficient acceleration of the shaft to produce additional energy greater than the few percent efficiency the motor lacks to be a "Unity" device. Enough additional energy in fact to make the motor become an "Over Unity device, hence, perpetual motion, and "free energy "
This will not happen, for a variety of reasons. Anyone who thinks it will happen is mildly or seriously delusionary; depending upon the extent that their particular psyche demands that the expected event must occur. From what you have written, many here feel that this includes you. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2008 : 05:15:15 [Permalink]
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary support," or something to that effect. I believe that it was Carl Sagan who said it. He said lots of stuff, very little of it unworthy of attention.
Thus far, unless I've missed something, all I've seen is the extraordinary claim. On the other hand, I know that a goodish percentage of the world's population are scoundrels or worse, and another percentage, embarrassing in it's magnitude, are those who keep the first percentage in business -- did I really write that? 
More and more I lean toward the "If There Wuz Anythin' To It..." side of the equasion. After all, Westinghouse, GE, Motorola and the companies from the mysterous Orient, and especally any outfit developing electric autos, scarcly seem to be beating a path to Thane's door.
Thinking about it, this one has all of the usual ingredients: Homeboy makes good; scientists stunned; miracle performed by scolastic dropout in the root cellar; inventor himself astounded, and so forth. A little more and it'll be almost enough to qualify for the National Inquirer (might already have; I don't pay much mind to the tabloids). Will we next hear that Big Business wants to supress it because it would cut into their obscene profits? If so, we must then drop all pretense and call bullshit because the CEOs of the electronics companies would happily sell their mothers into a Taliban harem for a chance at something like this, and Thane would have a high-paying, lifetime gig wandering around in a lab smock as well as the staggering sum he was given for the orginal machine.
Me, I'm still hoping, against the odds, that it's true, but you know what they say: "Hope in one hand & piss in the other, and see which hand fills up first."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 09:30:46 [Permalink]
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JustMe:
Okay, I get it. Y'all are too cool for school on the whole perpetual motion thing. |
Here's the deal. Many have tried and many have failed. So many that the American patent office requires a working model of a PM machine in order to award a patent for such a device.
It would be truly remarkable if such a device does work. There are, for example, certain physical limitations, both theorized and observed that say it can't happen. And then there are the failures by those who have made the attempt. Like alchemy, the rewards would be great if it could be done, but so far, no dice.
On the other hand, I doubt that there is anyone here who wouldn't like to see a successful device created. In a time when energy issues, right down to and including global warming are of great concern to us, a free energy device would be more than welcome. Physics books would need a rewrite based on the new evidence and a Nobel Prize would be a sure thing. Any upending of known physical principals would be an historic achievement.
Given all that has come before in this area, is it any wonder that we remain doubtful? The historical and physical evidence so far favors doubt. And we are skeptics, after all.
It should also be pointed out that skepticism provides a valuable service with regard to these kinds of claims. It is important to remind people to be cautious in the face of what we would like to have happen and what is, at best, unlikely to happen. Get through us and you're half way home. No one here has closed the door on the claim beyond pointing out what we know at this time based on physics and the history of failure with regard to the specific claim of PM.
I'm sure you would agree that scientific progress is impossible if we have no method for assessing the truth-value of a claim. This particular claim is extraordinary and comes along with a lot of baggage. So our reaction to the claim should be understandable to anyone who understands the function of scientific skepticism. That we sound the alarm should not come as a surprise to anyone who claims to be a skeptic and a critical thinker.
It ain't a matter of being cool. It's a matter of perspective.
Like it or not, that is who we are. I for one would welcome many of the things I am doubtful of, including a perpetual motion machine.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 09:46:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Okay, I get it. Y'all are too cool for school on the whole perpetual motion thing. |
Yes, and we all get that you're here for a fight, and not a discussion.
Otherwise, you might have acknowledged the other things being said, or tried to understand how things like the Crackpot Index are relevant. But no, you just single out things to disagree with and get all holier-than-thou about them. Thus, you will continue to be "baffled," because you're only paying attention to that which you think you can ridicule (making it all the easier, too).
Your "reasonable approach" is what, exactly? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 09:51:35 [Permalink]
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"The law that entropy always increases-the second law of thermodynamics-holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations-then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation-well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." --Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 07:16:52 [Permalink]
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Lots of things to respond to in the last posts, but have been busy the last bit. Wanted to quickly post this rather sharp rebuke from Dr. Zahn in response to an invitation from Heins to join him at NASA. More later...
Markus Zahn <zahn@MIT.EDU> wrote:
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:42 -0500
To: "Thane C. Heins" <thane_heins@yahoo.ca>
From: Markus Zahn <zahn@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: NASA-Goddard Space Flight Center Invitation & Information
Request
CC: rhabash@site.uottawa.ca, kcunningham@OCRI.ca, zahn@MIT.EDU
Dear Thane:
It seems to me that before you give more high level demonstrations, that you need to do more homework on your induction motor speed up due to the presence of a strong permanent magnet. As I and others have stated, the effect is most likely due to the magnetic hysteresis of the iron material that gets shifted by the permanent magnet to a new DC operating point. If not already done I also think you need to do some careful performance measurements such as measuring shaft speed and terminal current magnitude and phase with and without the presence of the permanent magnet as a function of line voltage. You should also measure the magnetic hysteresis curve with and without a permanent magnet present of your simplest motor configuration that you demonstrated to me. This is not difficult to do. I attach a video entitled "Measurement of B-H Characteristic" that shows how this can be done with an oscilloscope, two resistors and a capacitor. It can also be done with an integrating op-amp circuit. The attached text materials from the book by Haus and Melcher entitled Electromagnetic Fields and Energy also describe the measurement method and theory. In any measurements you should also measure the true electrical power in from your outlet power (voltage, current, and phase angle) as well as shaft power (torque and speed).
Any talk of perpetual motion, over unity efficiency, etc. discredits you, now me, and your ideas. I would not want to go to NASA or anywhere else to help promote your invention until basic testing and measurements are done so that the cause of shaft speed up due to a permanent magnet is understood and that the foolishness is stopped of hinting that your motor violates fundamental laws of physics.
Best of luck to you,
Markus Zahn
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:04:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Wanted to quickly post this rather sharp rebuke from Dr. Zahn in response to an invitation from Heins to join him at NASA. More later...
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What is so sharp about it?
He is requesting Thane really does make careful measurements on his contrapment. How much power is drawn from the outlet? Note that he have the good sense to ask for phase angle of the current. That is important and often overlooked when measuring power from an outlet. He is also asking for shaft power (torque and speed).
This really is a minimal required set of tests for detecting funky stuff within the induction engine.
Zahn has become guilty by association with Mr. Heins claims of overunity, and I can perfectly well understand why he doesn't like it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:05:26 [Permalink]
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Ah, a voice of reason crying out in the wilderness. Excellent! Now to await developements, for good or ill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Super generator? Perpetual motion? Another grift?
