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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 17:58:55 [Permalink]
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| A central point of my last post was that Heins does not (because he cannot) bear the burden of proving any new science his device *may* demonstrate. As such, I hoped it would be evident that my reference to peer review didn't intend to imply that any layperson from overunity.com or anywhere else could do any such thing. My use of the term was rather loose, so I apologize for that. My point was that there is value in the communication that is happening over there, and that it shares some symmetry with aspects of a formal peer review process designed to flush out problems and encourage accurate conclusions etc. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2008 : 18:08:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Sure there is. He fits into the crackpot profile quite well. |
That's the most brilliant thing that's appeared over the southern horizon since REO Speedwagon came up with "You're under the gun so you take it on the ruuuuun" in 1981 or whatever the fuck.
So far, on this thread, you fit the moron profile. If in the future if I don't respond to your inanity please be sure to conclude it's just because I think you're a moron and not because you've lobbed over something unreturnably clever. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 19:28:35 [Permalink]
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It's obvious you've got some empathy for Heins, JustMe, but is it enough to justify taking Dude's remark as personally as you did?
Especially when Dude is correct: Heins does, indeed, fit the profile of the classic Western civilization science crackpot. This has been said many times already, by several different people, but you're only now taking umbrage to it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 19:51:24 [Permalink]
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| No, I think everybody who has said it is being moronic, including you. And I thought Dude was a moron on this thread before his last post. So there's nothing new here. |
| Edited by - JustMe on 03/02/2008 19:53:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 20:13:32 [Permalink]
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| Okay. Still doesn't answer why you're taking it personally, but you're entitled to your opinion, however ill-informed it appears to be. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 20:37:25 [Permalink]
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Dave W. - A few pages ago I pointed out to HalfMooner (I think?) that I noticed that Heins hadn't actually said he hadn't/wouldn't do Zahn's tests. Much of your post on the previous page seems to rest on the perception that he rejected Zahn's advice. That remains an assumption.
You seemed to be questioning Heins' assertion that his device is in the lab at the University of Ottawa. Did I read that right? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 21:08:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Dave W. - A few pages ago I pointed out to HalfMooner (I think?) that I noticed that Heins hadn't actually said he hadn't/wouldn't do Zahn's tests. Much of your post on the previous page seems to rest on the perception that he rejected Zahn's advice. That remains an assumption. |
Is it a bad assumption to make?
Heins seems chatty. So long as Heins isn't joyously reporting positive results - or just saying, "I'm working on some of Zahn's measurements" - the safe assumption is that he hasn't done the measurements. It's been nearly two weeks, after all. And because his response to Zahn's email was less than receptive, it's a safe assumption that he won't be doing the measurements.
The cynical assumption (which I haven't made), based upon centuries of history, is that Heins did the measurements, they confirmed "nothing new here," and he's suppressing the truth so that his meal ticket doesn't vanish. The optimistic-to-a-fault assumption (which I also won't make), based upon no evidence whatsoever that I've seen in this thread, is that Heins will do the measurements, someday.
So yeah, it's an assumption. A reasonable assumption given all the data I have to date. It's nothing personal (unlike your "moron" comments), and has the benefit of being easily proved wrong: Heins just has to do what anyone wanting to know the truth about the device would do. If I'm right, we will never hear Heins mention the true electrical power input or the shaft power of his device (for just two examples).| You seemed to be questioning Heins' assertion that his device is in the lab at the University of Ottawa. Did I read that right? |
If you want to focus on trivialities, sure. I'm sure that the U of O has more than one lab. I am sure that U of O scientists rather jealously guard against intrustions into their lab space. I'm sure U of O also has a number of rooms that aren't really for use as labs, but people might call them that if they do lab-type work in them. I am sure that Heins' device is in a lab at U of O. Whether anyone else would characterize it as such is not an assumption I will make.
It really is interesting to see which parts of a post you'll latch onto and which you let slide on by. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 22:10:05 [Permalink]
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justme said:
| And I thought Dude was a moron on this thread before his last post. |
So you are obviously sleeping with this guy Heins, or have some other deep personal attachment to him.
All he has to do is post a detailed schematic and build instructions. No credible academic would, at this point, accept his word for test results. If the device can't be replicated, then its a scam.
This simple, obvious, solution to the problem would clear everything up. Heins failure to do so indicates to most people that he is either a retard or a con man.
Your continued defense of this guy is puzzling. So is your hostility. You obviously don't know diddly about peer review or you wouldn't have tried to compare the mass of semi-sentient imbeciles at overunity.com(or whatever) to peer review.
Your ignorance is your problem. You can choose to wallow in it or rise above it, and you shouldn't take offense when someone merely points it out to you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 22:11:47 [Permalink]
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I asked about your comment on the university because I need to know if there is any point in putting effort into my discussion with you. If you were seriously questioning something as fundamental as that, on top of your enthusiastic support for both an arrogance like the crackpot list and moronic utterances from posters who fly onto a thread without even the most basic facts, I probably would conclude no. So the question wasn't trivial to me.
Heins posted an email exchange with Dr. Zahn early last week that included hysteresis data from MIT and an indication from Heins that they were proceeding with Dr. Zahn's tests. So your assumption was not a good one. But don't worry, almost everyone made it. That's what can happen when you let the crackpot list do the heavy lifting. And since we don't yet have proof those tests were done, or if they were what the results were, you may get to gloat yet. In my view it is worth noting that not one person other than me took a step back and looked hard enough to realize that he never ever said he wouldn't do them. He characterized Dr. Zahn's opinion as "unquantified". That's all he did. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 00:02:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
I asked about your comment on the university because I need to know if there is any point in putting effort into my discussion with you. If you were seriously questioning something as fundamental as that, on top of your enthusiastic support for both an arrogance like the crackpot list and moronic utterances from posters who fly onto a thread without even the most basic facts, I probably would conclude no. So the question wasn't trivial to me. |
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The Crackpot Index is a concise summary of decades of hard evidence. That you dismiss it as "arrogance" speaks volumes about where you're coming from.| Heins posted an email exchange with Dr. Zahn early last week that included hysteresis data from MIT and an indication from Heins that they were proceeding with Dr. Zahn's tests. So your assumption was not a good one. |
Absolutely it was a good assumption, based upon the data I had. This email exchange is new data. So the old assumption is thrown away. That's how skepticism works.| But don't worry, almost everyone made it. |
Why would I worry about a thing like that? You insult me by implying that simply being amongst the majority makes me happy.| That's what can happen when you let the crackpot list do the heavy lifting. |
What "heavy lifting?" You make it seem like ignoring history places a huge burden upon your shoulders. I suppose it does, as it means that you will, throughout your life, waste tons of time and effort redoing things that people have already done, for good or ill.| And since we don't yet have proof those tests were done, or if they were what the results were, you may get to gloat yet. |
And there you go, being personally insulting again. Did I give you any evidence that I'd be gloating if Heins failed? You're quite the cynic.| In my view it is worth noting that not one person other than me took a step back and looked hard enough to realize that he never ever said he wouldn't do them. |
Talk about gloating. And you say it using the assumption (and a poor, unevidenced assumption at that) that you really were the only one. You further traipse into nonsense by assuming that only his saying, "I'm not going to do those measurements" would be valid data. But your ignorance of history is showing again. None of the crackpots state that they won't be doing measurements. Heins once again fit the bill simply by remaining silent on the question.| He characterized Dr. Zahn's opinion as "unquantified". That's all he did. |
Yes, of course he did, since Zahn offered no numbers whatsoever. Zahn told him to go get numbers. How could Zahn's opinion possibly have been "quantified" when Zahn's opinion was "you should go get some numbers?" As such, Heins was being publicly very dismissive of Zahn on a patently nonsensical basis. If he's seen reason and changed his mind, more power to him.
So, now I'm beginning to see little point in continuing this discussion with you, JustMe. Your own arrogance is shining through, and your continued personal insults are getting tiring. You're not interested in history, and instead base your own conclusions and assumptions upon an admitted ignorance of the subject matter. In fact, you seem to pride yourself on not having all the relevant data, but implying anyway that you're the more-proper skeptic around here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2008 : 04:14:50 [Permalink]
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A moron I might be but I am a moron standing on the intellectual high ground, here.
In the decades I've been moronin' around this planet, I've seen 'em come & go, mostly go. At this point, I am of the opinion that Thane's whatsis will land in the 'Go' bin. Further, unless & until the tests are done to conclusion, for good or ill, and it is shown that there is no dishonesty apparent, his pot is just as fractured as were/are so many pots before & with him.
I have another question: who will be assisting him on the tests (assuming that they ever get done)? I really don't trust someone who says to the effect that he's built something and doesn't know how it works, and worse, says it in a news organ interview when he should be spending that time in the lab-cellar-wherever, finding out how the hell the thing works.
If this guy wants scientific recognition, he's going about getting it in the wrong way.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 12:39:14 [Permalink]
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More data: Heins knew about this thread on Feb 24th, so now I am sure that we're not simply passive observers here.
aether22's response to JustMe's post here is par for the course:But 'Skeptics' aren't actually willing to consider anything outside of their very limited world as even being possible. Show of hands: who here has done that? aether22 is full of strawmen:They can't explain why this or that is categorically impossible... Nobody has to. Heins has to show it does whatever he claims it does.
Good grief. Heins isn't the most ethical person in the world, posting what was obviously an email or PM from JustMe, and makes fun of her user name.
On the 25th, Heins made a joke about his device using hidden batteries, and aether22 replied in part:Now the skeptics can go home since the fraud has been unveiled, may you know that your thinking small has once again been right on, safe in the knowledge that nothing extraordinary, exotic or interesting exists in the world. He needs to find the Cynic Friends Network, the next block over. They're the ones who are simply naysayers.
I'm guessing that this post is the "email exchange" referred to by JustMe. It doesn't actually say very much.
Just around that time, MainePower says some critical things, and Heins gripes about pot shots taken by people who hide behind anonymity, and says he's leaving. On Feb 27th, Heins ironically comes back to the forums as "OilBarren" instead of "Heinstein," which he later says was an agglomeration of "Heineken" and "Stein," even though later still he suggests it was a play on Einstein.
He also says,THE PROBLEM IS OFTEN VERY TECHNICALLY COMPETENT AND SINCERE PEOPLE TRYING TO APPLY CURRENT LEVELS OF UNDERSTANDING (WHICH ARE NOT ADEQUATE) TO THE NEW PHENOMENON(S). Here Heins is clearly stating that his effect is beyond current physics. If there were any doubt before, there should be none now that Heins is making claims to new science.
And on Feb 29 we see that Heins is still talking about input voltages and output voltages, and still hasn't measured the true power-in/power-out relationship. Yesterday's video shows nothing but Hein's reliance on rotor speed to tell him what's going on - no actual measurements appear to be made during the demonstration. And again early this morning: to Heins, "being informed" involves reading about why the system shouldn't work, instead of measuring the input/output power ratio.
aether22 tries to rescue Heins by accusing someone with a reasonable test of thinking that Heins' device is an overunity device, completely missing out on the fact that the proposed test simply compares before-and-after efficiencies. And here is aether22 failing to grasp that changes in rotor speed don't necessarily reflect changes in power, and then he makes excuses for why the output power can't be measured. Indeed, the guy tells aether22 all over again what's wrong, and aether22 replies with a misunderstanding of "power" followed by a personal attack:In all seriousness you simply don't want to find that this thing works, you are grasping at straws. It's a real pity he couldn't keep up the "we're so much better than the skeptics" sham. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 13:02:39 [Permalink]
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If he has something so fantastic going, what the hell is he doing messing around trying to rebut skeptics with nonsense?
In all truth, I can't see where he might be going with this. If it's not a scam, he's wasting time; if it's less than an honest endeavor, it's the clumsiest I've ever heard of.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 14:20:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
A moron I might be but I am a moron standing on the intellectual high ground, here.
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Indeed, Filthy is a moron in high standing. 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 08:20:16 [Permalink]
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Well, only a couple of interesting things have been happening in the OU forums thread in the last 11 days (I just got caught up).
First, Heins has declared:AN OPTIMIZED PRIMARY WILL GIVE US OVER 100% EFFICIENCY ANYTHING LESS AND IT'S ALL GOING IN THE GARBAGE. At least that's his "PREDICTION (HOPE DESIRE)." Heins has been given a dune buggy frame, and plans to install something on it which will - he intends - make the Ansari 100 MPG X-Prize "MOOT."
Second, from page 40-something through page 63, a user named "polarbreeze" has been making astute observations and asking important questions, nearly all of which have been blown off. He's received numerous insults in return, and even been accused of lying about his motivations for participating in the thread. In the last ten pages or so, Heins and Luc have moved away from the "generator" to just testing a transformer, and polarbreeze's questions about the configuration of the secondary coils have been met with derision and abuse. He lives just 10 miles from Heins' lab, and has been asked to come on over and see for himself. But polarbreeze's simple questions are now a "due diligence" issue, with polarbreeze indicating that he'll show up for a demo once his simple questions are answered. Others (including JustMe) are basically calling him "chicken" now.
For all their claims to being the more reasonable bunch of people, it really looks like they're just a bunch of bullies. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Super generator? Perpetual motion? Another grift?
