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 The Infidel Guy did not like my post...
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  20:36:38  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had a post deleted from of all sites, The Infidel Guy's forum. Apparently, introducing myself as a co-founder of The Skeptic Friends Network after saying “Greetings from SFN” is considered spamming on his forum. I also mentioned that we met at TAM and that I had meant to register at his site for some time. I, by no means asked for anyone there to “check us out.”

I have registered on many skeptic forums over the years, using the same style, as a show of support for what they are doing. Every other greeting of mine as representing SFN has been met by much friendlier responses.

Is it ironic that the only other time I have ever had a post deleted was when I posted at a religious forum?



Oh well, no good deed goes unpunished…


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  21:20:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, my request to simply register at the Snitz forums (the forums for talking about this forum software) hasn't even been acknowledged after some weeks.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  21:48:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, after explaining to him my intentions, and how he misunderstood them, I got this from him:

The Infidel Guy:
Sorry you feel singled out, but this isn't the case. If I knew you personally and perhaps thought you were a friend and even meant well. That would be one thing. However, the post was nothing but spammage.

Now if you'll excuse me.. I have better things to do than squabble about a policy I have enforced severely for 10 years.


Bolding mine.


This reminds me of how much I love the way we moderate this forum. We may not be perfect, but we have, on occasion, been able to admit when we have made a mistake...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  22:16:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the message I get is that his severely enforced policy is to assume the worst of intentions among his users unless proven otherwise. It probably saves him a lot of time, since he can just delete posts instead of waiting to see if anything good happens, or agonizing over whether to issue a warning or how to word it. I'm only surprised that he bothered doing it himself since he's got a moderation staff numbering in the double digits, and had he let them take care of you he could have saved himself even more time.

You didn't pay the 75 bucks, did you?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  23:00:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm shocked, having not known this about The Infidel Guy's MO. By contrast, at SFN, I've consistently seen an eagerness to support other skeptic sites. (Even woos usually get to post their links, so long as they do so after taking time to properly introduce themselves, and explain what they're up to.) We're not scared of ideas.

For a skeptic running a philosophically compatible Web site to behave in such a "severe" manner seems to reflect badly on him, and upon his intentions. Is TIG only interested in promoting his own site as a profit-making fiefdom, or does he care about the broader advancement of critical thinking? (I have no objection to his making a profit, but his methods appear unseemly and almost paranoid.) Does TIG feel threatened by free and open skeptic sites? Is he worried that his regulars will discover that his site is not the only game in town? (TIG: They already know, most of them.)

It seems to me that TIG's site has some great strengths, considering its multimedia content and prominent guests. TIG should rely upon these strengths, not upon rudeness and provincialism, to promote his site's profitability.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/12/2008 23:03:16
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  00:56:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is TIG's Wednesday morning comment:
infidelguy
Site Admin






Joined: Feb 21, 1999
Posts: 4921
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:27 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Due to a recent event (that someone has decided important enough to post over at his site. 'Which I find quite strange'.) I figure I need to clarify something. It has been a long standing policy of mine to delete a first time poster's post when they advertise or spam or represent another website explicitly. First time posters may not mean to spam but that is exactly what they are doing. If I haven't heard of you or your organization, it is even more likely that I'll assume you're spamming. I truly don't care how popular you think your site is. It's still spamming.

I have allowed signatures as to help curb things like this from happening. Alas.. is still does from time to time.

I hope you can forgive my almost decade long policy but it just comes across as.. "Hey look at me, look at me.. I'm working on my website.. blah blah."

I can't really remember if I even posted at another freethought site and said, "Hello from infidelguy.com".. but if I did.. it would be to show my support.. and spread news about my site.

So basically, don't do it. Get your feet wet first.. introduce yourself.. hang out... gab with a few members. Then a few links now and again, isn't a big deal. Constant misuse however, will result in a ban. We had users in the past that took advantage of my niceness and felt that almost every post they made had to have a link back to some place on their site. Really irritating.

A post deletion isn't banning. Hopefully, folks will have intelligence enough to simply repost and play fair.

That is all.
Man, oh man, this bozo is some big deal, eh?

A legend in his own mind!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  01:31:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with tiny fiefdoms is that there often laws against the petty ruler's pet peeves.

I much prefer the SFN's representative democracy (or is it an anarchosyndicalist commune?)


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  02:23:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think its funny that he charges... Never listened to any of his stuff, never registered on is forums, etc.. because the first time I ever went to his site the one thing I was looking for (audio of a previous interview) had a fee attached to get access.

Skepticality is much better anyway.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  04:11:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it ironic that the only other time I have ever had a post deleted was when I posted at a religious forum?

Is it possible to have skepticism itself as a religion? I suppose it might be and, as in all religions, there would be various sects often at odds with each other, and I'm full of shit. It's too early in the morning for such philosophical nonsense.

Anyhow, I looked the site over (never heard of it before) and if the moderation is that tetchy, I don't think I'll bother. Font's too small, for another reason, if another'n be called for.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  05:32:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finley's a good guy trying to make a buck, and trying to run a forum. I think he's taken the idea of spam a little too far, but, I don't have to run his site.

Likewise, I see nothing wrong with Kil posting his frustrations here, it's his site, and why Finley would see that as "strange" I don't understand.

Like Kil, I would probably have felt insulted, but I can also understand a guy who thinks he has to be even-handed about his rules.

I have better things to do than squabble about a policy I have enforced severely for 10 years.


I also have to remember not to use the line "I have better things to do," when I'm talking to people, unless I want bruise their egos more than I have already done.

Having said all that, please don't be too hard on him.

And, like Filthy said, even if this site had no appeal in content (and it does have appeal in content), it just works and looks better than most discussion sites.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  08:31:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

...the first time I ever went to his site the one thing I was looking for (audio of a previous interview) had a fee attached to get access.
Yeah, that was my first experience with him, too, years ago.

Regarding the current dust-up, what's really "quite strange" is this bit:
...that someone has decided important enough to post over at his site...
Doesn't Finley have the "intelligence" to realize the irony of his public comment this morning?

Unlike Finley, I am sure that Finley's got the best of intentions. They're just coming out all strange.

Especially since it's obvious that his anti-spam policy doesn't extend to first-time posters' explicit mention of brick-and-mortar organizations. Just Web sites.

But hey, it's his site, he can run it as he pleases. Nobody is forced to go there.

[Edited to add link - Dave W.]

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  08:54:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Regarding the current dust-up, what's really "quite strange" is this bit:
...that someone has decided important enough to post over at his site...
Doesn't Finley have the "intelligence" to realize the irony of his public comment this morning?


Well, he didn't mention Kil nor this site, either.

I wonder if Reginald Finley signs up on other discussion forums. He evidently reads this one. (edited to say he read it once, anyway)

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 02/13/2008 09:00:16
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  09:00:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TIG:
If I haven't heard of you or your organization, it is even more likely that I'll assume you're spamming. I truly don't care how popular you think your site is. It's still spamming.


When we met at the reception at TAM5, he told me he knew of SFN. Derek had just met him and thought it was funny because they are from the same city. After telling me that, upon our first meeting too, Derek introduced me to him. So the TiG either lied then, (to be polite?) or he is lying now to save face.

I reminded him of that meeting in my PM to him, by the way. If he had been the least bit polite in his response to me, I would have re-posted my greeting more in accordance with his dictates. If he acknowledged that he just might have been mistaken about my intent, this thread wouldn't exist.

Also, I find it inexplicable that "representing another website" would be grounds for having a post deleted unless that representative is fishing for members. I wasn't. But if he chooses to not be a larger part of the skeptical community, I suppose that's his business.

Gorgo, Finely might be a good guy. I dunno. I thought he was when I registered on his site. But as you can see, that has not my experience with him so far.

I still have a lot of respect for him, being the first out there with audio interviews and such pushing freethinking. He has earned that much. His rudeness to me does not erase what he has accomplished as a visionary.

I'm just bummed that he didn't even try to understand where I was coming from and just dug in. I expect better from the leaders of this movement...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  09:20:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Well, he didn't mention Kil nor this site, either.
Well, the irony was in the importance Finley places on the issue, while simultaneously giving (unnamed) Kil crap for thinking it was important enough to post about here.

(Hey, bngbuck, you forgot the link.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  09:24:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote


I still have a lot of respect for him, being the first out there with audio interviews and such pushing freethinking. He has earned that much. His rudeness to me does not erase what he has accomplished as a visionary.



Don't know how much of a leader of a movement or a visionary he is, but from what I know about it, I do find myself hoping that I would have handled it differently had I been him.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  09:26:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Gorgo

Well, he didn't mention Kil nor this site, either.
Well, the irony was in the importance Finley places on the issue, while simultaneously giving (unnamed) Kil crap for thinking it was important enough to post about here.


Maybe. The way I read it is that he did what he should have done before, post a note about what he calls spamming. Had Kil known his problem with it, Kil might have done something different.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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