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 Didn't you all know? Lizards never stop growing!
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Risendemonx
New Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  07:38:19  Show Profile Send Risendemonx a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I am currently engaged in a creation debate on facebook, and I recieved this lovely gem of an argument:

"Now dino's are lizards, and we know that they never stop growing until they die...Now what happened to dino's? I believe man hunted them down with memories of how big they get [before the flood] and what they are capable of doing. It's what I'd do. T-Rex yeah not letting you grow up and eat me. Pterodactyl you've got too much air advantage."





As the owner of 4 reptiles, I can attest that my Iguana's growth is stunted severely (never to recover), my leopard gecko hasn't gained an ounce since I got him fully grown, and that my malasian golden gecko is still not large enough to rip my limbs off, and that my schneider's skink, aside from regrowing his tail, has not gained any appreciable mass.

See, the problem with the argument is that it's so stupid, that I can't find any internet source to give this creationist that directly addresses it! I mean, I could go about it by showing the different hip structures, and the fact that a regular lizard's proportions are such that it could *never* attain that sort of size without collapsing in on itself... but really, if you are dumb enough to think that dinosaurs are just really big lizards, I doubt that you would understand anything about proportions...

Filthy- You, being a reptile enthusiast, may have heard this argument before. What did you say, or what would you say to it now(aside from wetting yourself from laughing so hard!)? Sometimes, some people's arguments are so stupid that you can't think of an answer to them!

"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  07:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah. Bafflingly stupid. Are you sure you're not being taken??

Anyhow, no need to cite anything. Just appeal to common sense (ok, ok, but it's not like he's going to actually read the citation, either). If lizards always keep growing, then why didn't immediate-post flood humans hunt them down, too?

Man. I'm really down on American stupidity today. After reading this and going through that UD thread, I have no faith in our future scientific excellence.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  08:30:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, point A: Dinosaurs were not lizards, nor even very closely related. Some physical differences can be spotted at a glance -- their legs were directly under them rather than splayed, for one. No lizard has a beak, for another.

Point B: All reptiles grow throughout their lives, indeed rapidly, but as they reach maturity, they slow down a lot. I keep an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake that has stayed around 5.5 feet seems like forever (she was slightly over 1.5 when I got her some 9 years ago).

Ask your friend this: After the alledged Flood, there couldn't have been much of a world human population for many centuries -- we are supposed to have started out with only 8 and It's open to doubt that those few ladies amongst that number were that fecund. And as humans have a slower reproduction rate than most reptiles, how exactly did they manage to kill off all of the dinos? And remind him that neither Pterodactyls (Pterosaurs) nor Pleiseosaurs (Nessie ) were dinosaurs.

Then you might consider sending him this link on the trivales of the late Noah. <<Linky

I declare, ya gotta love the staggering ignorance displayed by some of these folks. They never fail to come up with nothing.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/18/2008 08:35:09
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  08:38:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, that was such a stupid statement, it's hard to think of a counter. I've tried to find information on lizard maximum growth, as well as information showing dinosaurs are not lizards. But both these seem to be such well-established facts that they aren't mentioned much -- or at least such mentions are obscured by many unwanted Google "hits" that are really misses.

It's like the principle that Ogg discovered and described, circa 100,000 BCE: "Fire hot!" There's rarely been a need to reiterate that statement since the time Ogg's peers repeated and confirmed the experiment.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/18/2008 08:42:26
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  09:00:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I agree, that was such a stupid statement, it's hard to think of a counter. I've tried to find information on lizard maximum growth, as well as information showing dinosaurs are not lizards. But both these seem to be such well-established facts that they aren't mentioned much -- or at least such mentions are obscured by many unwanted Google "hits" that are really misses.

It's like the principle that Ogg discovered and described, circa 100,000 BCE: "Fire hot!" There's rarely been a need to reiterate that statement since the time Ogg's peers repeated and confirmed the experiment.




Here y'go, m'friend:

Most people think of dinosaurs as big, ferocious and extinct reptiles. That's largely true, but there are some misconceptions.

The word dinosaur, which means "terrible lizard," was coined in 1842, but now we know that dinosaurs aren't lizards, although they share a common ancestor. Lizards as a group are primitive compared to dinosaurs.
A good article. The link in it is also interesting.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Risendemonx
New Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  10:23:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Risendemonx a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

I'm really down on American stupidity today. After reading this and going through that UD thread, I have no faith in our future scientific excellence.


Well... you can rest a little easier, because this guy was from Mexico.

Conversly, I guess it's a clue to panic, since it looks like creationism is spreading south...

"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Risendemonx
New Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  10:30:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Risendemonx a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Point B: All reptiles grow throughout their lives, indeed rapidly, but as they reach maturity, they slow down a lot. I keep an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake that has stayed around 5.5 feet seems like forever (she was slightly over 1.5 when I got her some 9 years ago).


Oh, that sounds like a gorgeous snake! What all do you have out of curiosity? I think you're into breeding for the purposes of rehabilitating natural populations, is that right? If so, how did you get into doing that? I've been interested in reptiles since as long as I could remember, but just never had the time or means to learn how to breed.

Originally posted by filthy


I declare, ya gotta love the staggering ignorance displayed by some of these folks. They never fail to come up with nothing.


Yep! I thought I'd heard it all... and today, I was proven wrong!

Thanks for all your help- Sometimes somebody says something so profoundly stupid, your mind just implodes, and you can't think for awhile. It's almost like an intellectual concussion missile.

"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  10:51:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just when you think you have read or heard every possible stupid comment by a creationist, a new one comes along. This one just happens to be worthy of more attention than most.

Risendemonx, I think you should submit the “lizard” quote to the Fundies Say the Darndest Things site.

I would do it myself, only I don't have the necessary links to complete the submission.

Just go to this page and fill out the form.


Allan would have loved that quote…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Risendemonx
New Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  11:44:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Risendemonx a Private Message  Reply with Quote
oh... wow! that didn't even occur to me! thanks Kil, i'll go do that right now!

"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  12:17:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Risendemonx

Originally posted by filthy

Point B: All reptiles grow throughout their lives, indeed rapidly, but as they reach maturity, they slow down a lot. I keep an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake that has stayed around 5.5 feet seems like forever (she was slightly over 1.5 when I got her some 9 years ago).


Oh, that sounds like a gorgeous snake! What all do you have out of curiosity? I think you're into breeding for the purposes of rehabilitating natural populations, is that right? If so, how did you get into doing that? I've been interested in reptiles since as long as I could remember, but just never had the time or means to learn how to breed.

Originally posted by filthy


I declare, ya gotta love the staggering ignorance displayed by some of these folks. They never fail to come up with nothing.


Yep! I thought I'd heard it all... and today, I was proven wrong!

Thanks for all your help- Sometimes somebody says something so profoundly stupid, your mind just implodes, and you can't think for awhile. It's almost like an intellectual concussion missile.
She is indeed lovely; one of the darker phases. She is among the remimants of some 18 hot snakes, including a couple of very ill-tempered Cobras, that I used for educational presentations. I am now down to 5 and plan to cut that as soon as I can find reliable homes.

Currently:
The Eastern (Crotalus adamanteus) F
An African Puff Adder (Bitis arietans) F
2 Cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorus conanti) M&F
A Trans-Pecos Copperhead (Akistrodon controtrix pictogaster) M

I would dearly love to get into breeding for rehab, both C. adamanteus and C. h horridus but lack the space to build the facilities. The state wound support me (I'm already licensed) and it would be a great endevor for my creaky old age. Maybe in a year or so, as I'm planning to move....







"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Charley Mana
New Member

1 Post

Posted - 07/07/2015 :  02:55:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Charley Mana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most fish, amphibians, lizards, and snakes are indeterminate growers. In theory, they can get as big as their environment and diet allow. They only stop growing according to the size of the tank you keep them in. According to earliest written history, humans lived to be almost 1000 years old in a time when our inviroment was different. If this is possible and true, than a 1000 year old lizard could possibly get to be the size of a dino. Nobody really knows what the inviroment was like billions of years ago. It most likely was more different than we can imagine. This guy accually has a good scientific theory here. What would be enough to convince me would be if someone was to tell me that a tigers k9 teeth also never stop growing. Than we would have a saber tooth tiger.
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2015 :  07:44:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please cite credible evidence for humans living to nearly 1000 years. Note that religious scriptures are just claims, not evidence.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26007 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2015 :  08:08:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to the SFN!
Originally posted by Charley Mana

According to earliest written history, humans lived to be almost 1000 years old in a time when our inviroment was different.
Which written history would that be?
If this is possible and true...
It isn't and it's not.
...than a 1000 year old lizard could possibly get to be the size of a dino.
But dinosaurs weren't big lizards.
Nobody really knows what the inviroment was like billions of years ago.
Actually, we have pretty good data. Of course, there weren't any dinosaurs around billions of years ago, either. 234 million years ago is about when they first appeared.
It most likely was more different than we can imagine.
No, we can imagine quite a lot, and we have good data on a bunch of it.
This guy accually has a good scientific theory here.
No, he doesn't. He's got wild speculation based on religious fundamentalism.
What would be enough to convince me would be if someone was to tell me that a tigers k9 teeth also never stop growing. Than we would have a saber tooth tiger.
Modern tigers and extinct saber-toothed cats are distantly related, at best.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2015 :  08:13:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dinosaurs were not big lizards. You only see those in old science fiction films where they dressed up a lizard to look like a dinosaur. Only they didn't look anything like a dinosaur because they still had the hips and morphology of a lizard. Come to think of it, they should have dressed up birds, because birds are dinosaurs.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2015 :  19:13:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's true, and they're taking over our government! I took this picture in DC:


"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2015 :  22:28:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome, Charley Mana, to Skeptic Friends Network!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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