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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  20:12:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Filthy, Westboro Baptist Church has about thirty, or fewer, devout followers. There are 1.2 billion Muslims of varying degrees of faith and devotion. If ten percent of these were radical believers, there would be 120 million to worry about. When I get a chance, I will check out that tinyuurl link, thanks.

H Humbert, What are the Puritans doing now, today? What are the Spanish Inquisitors doing now, today? I do not believe that Christianity's sordid past is applicable to today's events. I wonder how many years will the West have to contend with extreme Islam until it reforms itself. 200? 300?

Dave, we are spending millions (billions?) on security because of the threat of activity from Islamic extremists. Have we stepped up security anywhere because of the activities of Christian hijackers? Check out the news from the rest of the world, extremist Muslims are exerting their influence through violence in Thailand, Philippines, India, Indonesia, Sudan (Darfur), and other places.

Europe has a serious problem with Muslim immigration. There is pressure to establish a dual legal system in the UK. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/30484/Sharia-storm-grows/ Do you have a problem with the "Daily Star?" As far as wealth is concerned, those examples you gave are middle class compared to the wealth of the Saudis, and the Saudis are the spreaders of their Wahabbi sect of Islam.

Finally, the sky is not falling, but some of the cables that hold it up are getting frayed. One of the many, many differences between extreme Islam and extreme Chistianity are the means to the end.

I may sound as if I am defending Christianity; I am not. I am trying to point out that the two religions are radically different.


How about stories of fanatical followers bombing buildings and assassinating doctors?

No, not radical Muslims. Army of God, and extremist Christian organization who bombs abortion clinics and shoots abortion providing doctors in their own homes.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  21:31:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Valiant, I would post some incidents about violence against abortion clinics and doctors, but according the referenced website, there aren't very many. Here is a summary

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_extreme.asp

Tell me again about all this violence perpetrated by radical Christians.

Y'all need to find another boogeyman, this one is lame.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  21:37:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Dave, we are spending millions (billions?) on security because of the threat of activity from Islamic extremists.
And doing so very stupidly.
Have we stepped up security anywhere because of the activities of Christian hijackers? Check out the news from the rest of the world, extremist Muslims are exerting their influence through violence in Thailand, Philippines, India, Indonesia, Sudan (Darfur), and other places.
I see. When I point out that their violence doesn't actually do all that much damage in the grand scheme of things, you say, "Acts of terror are just one avenue." When I agree, and point out all the non-violent-but-still-quite-dangerous activities of the Christian radicals, you swing back to pointing out the violence of the Islamists. Heads you win, tails I lose - is that it?
Finally, the sky is not falling, but some of the cables that hold it up are getting frayed.
So says you.
One of the many, many differences between extreme Islam and extreme Chistianity are the means to the end.
Yes, the Christians don't use bombs and swords, they use lawyers and PR firms to acheive the same ends. There are serious battles being played out for which not one dime of "security" money is being spent. The battles over the attempts by the Christian radicals to dumb-down the United States starting with our children. If we haven't already lost the technological edge, we may do so very soon. If we lose enough scientists and engineers, then we'll lose our ability to defend against the bombs and swords, too. If that goes on long enough, the US will be a wasteland where nobody lives except for warring tribes of radical Christians and radical Islamists. But the first skirmishes in that war aren't in the Middle East. They are in Dover and Cobb County and Utah and Los Angeles and South Carolina and Florida and Ohio. Allow the Christian extremists to have their way with science, and there will be no more science here.
I may sound as if I am defending Christianity; I am not. I am trying to point out that the two religions are radically different.
I know very well that they are radically different. But extremist Christianity is a religion of peace just like Benny Hinn is a man of peace. He doesn't use violence to take your money, he simply convinces you to give him your money. You can call that "peace" if you want.

And it doesn't matter if Westboro only has thirty or forty parishoners. Each extremist Christian Congressperson represents over half a million citizens (on average). It only takes about 268 votes, plus the President, to pass stupid religiously motivated laws. 269 people can do lasting damage to the other 305 million of us. Compare those numbers to the jihadists' death toll. And not a penny of the security budget is being spent by the government to contain or combat the threat.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  21:47:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I should also point out to Pelayo that one of the strategies employed by radical Christians intent on deflecting attention from their aims is to hype the threat posed by radical Islam.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  22:01:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H Humbert, that statement about Christians hyping the Islamic threat sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Dave, we may never reach an agreement. I still consider militant Christianity the lesser of the two evils.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  22:18:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Dave, we may never reach an agreement. I still consider militant Christianity the lesser of the two evils.
And that's exactly the way they want you to think of them. Actually, no, they want you to join them - for the sake of your eternal soul, of course. But they'll gladly accept you looking at some other threat while they do their non-violent and usually quite legal damage behind your back.

The key, of course, is to address both threats. We need less-idiotic policies and practices to control the guys with the bombs and swords, and we can develop and implement such defenses by strengthening science and political eduction, which would also retard the advancing Christian theocrats. One of the main problems right now is that the theocrats have a ton of power, and so we get billions spent on training for and enforcing absolutely moronic defenses like the three-ounce limit and the outright ban on blender blades.

The real threat, you see, is the stupidity in our own government. If we could fix that, these other things (and more!) would be a walk in the park.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  23:41:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave, this is a reply you wrote on this thread:

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9569

"The winning strategy seems to be to show the undecided that the creationists expect them to be stupid to get them to believe their arguments. That way, they will see that the creationists aren't just attacking science, but the people - on a personal level. There will be rebellion against the creationists once a tipping-point of anger is reached. It's a matter of time."

I thought you were implying that the creationists (fundamentalists) efforts would be self-defeating because mainstream (nominal) Christians would see their ideas for the buffoonery that they are. Sure they will cost us a bundle in legal fees, but there will not be an associated hospital bill. It's not just a struggle of atheists against the IDers and other assorted fundamentalists; it also includes Christians,Jews, Hindus, and others who do not believe in a 6000 year old universe and want to be left alone.

I can remember blue laws and prohibition against alcohol in Tennessee. These laws were overturned by the efforts Christians not atheists. Tennessee had a constitution that prohibited lotteries; it was amended by nominal Christians not atheists.

The people who will man the front lines against this fundamentalist assault will include the run of the mill Christians who do not accept this nonsense.

I just got a good look at the clock' gotta go.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  07:00:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

I thought you were implying that the creationists (fundamentalists) efforts would be self-defeating because mainstream (nominal) Christians would see their ideas for the buffoonery that they are.
No, it's going to require education, because the radical's speech often sounds reasonable to the mainstream, and even to the largish percentage of atheists who simply aren't educated in the fields in which the extremists are attacking.
The people who will man the front lines against this fundamentalist assault will include the run of the mill Christians who do not accept this nonsense.
And nowhere have I implied that such is not the case. The fact is that the people who don't see the assault that's happening now come from all religious backgrounds. The fact that the majority of those victims are Christians means that if we ever do get around to beating back the radicals, the majority of the counter-attackers will be Christians.

We already see some people saying things like, "it's disgusting what those people are doing in the name of my God." We need more like that. Many more.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9687 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  13:58:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

H Humbert, that statement about Christians hyping the Islamic threat sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Are you paranoid if they really are out to get you?
It is a conspiracy. Just a very transparent one. Take some time to look at any run-of-the-mill Christian fundy forum, like Rapture Ready or Free Republic and tell me that they aren't hyping Islamic Threat...


Dave, we may never reach an agreement. I still consider militant Christianity the lesser of the two evils.
Militant Islamists are half way around the globe. Radical Christians could be your neighbour: You tell me which is the most immediate threat.




Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  15:14:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Half way around the world?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/26/AR2008022603267.html
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb/20/man-airport-had-box-cutter-hidden-book/
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=272528
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/aug/05/possible_bomb_scare_shuts_down_goose_creek_highway/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/17/alqaeda.guilty.plea/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316514,00.html






I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  15:28:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One more

If you think church bells are annoying, you ain't heard nothin' yet.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/islamic-prayer-tower-rises-in-south-st.html

Update - The imam has no plans to install the loudspeakers, for now.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
Edited by - Pelayo on 02/27/2008 15:51:54
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  17:54:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Valiant, I would post some incidents about violence against abortion clinics and doctors, but according the referenced website, there aren't very many. Here is a summary

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_extreme.asp

Tell me again about all this violence perpetrated by radical Christians.

Y'all need to find another boogeyman, this one is lame.


My boogeyman is extremist religion in general. One flavor isn't any more threatening than the next. As both are religions of peace and practiced peacefully by the great majority of adherents, your hand waving dismissal of extremist Christianity is very telling.

Sell your unreasonable hatred for one form of religious extremism elsewhere. I ain't buying.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  21:03:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Valiant, you said this: "How about stories of fanatical followers bombing buildings and assassinating doctors? No, not radical Muslims. Army of God, and extremist Christian organization who bombs abortion clinics and shoots abortion providing doctors in their own homes."

I merely pointed out that your claim of abortion clinic violence is overblown when one tries to find recent incidents. Of course some guy might "get religion" tomorrow and start a new wave of violence.

Pointing out only two (2) incidents of abortion clinic violence in 2007 is not handwaving, it is pointing out an exaggeration.

You tried to claim that a certain group was perpetraing violence against clinics, when it appears to be on the wane - at least for now. I'm wondering who really has an "unreasonable hatred for one form of religious extremism."

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  21:08:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How many acts of Islamic violence have occured in the United States recently, Pelayo? Lets compare apples to apples. Ten instances of anti-abortion arson since 2002. What did the jidhadists do here during the same time period?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2008 :  21:56:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
8/6/2003 - USA Houston - After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.

10/9/2002 - Manassas, VA Muslim sniper kills 53-year-old man. (This is the only entry I'll make referencing the DC Sniper.) To deny that these were religiously motivated crimes is to deny reality - in my opinion.

6/10/2004 - Atlanta, GA A man riding on an Atlanta commuter train mutters Qur'anic verses then attacks an army officer for no other apparent reason. An elderly woman and two arresting officers are hurt as well.

7/28/2006 - Seattle, An 'angry' Muslim-American barges into a local Jewish center and shoots six women, one of whom dies

3/3/2006 - Chapel Hill, NC, Calling it the will of Allah, an Iranian immigrant plows his SUV into a crowd of students as 'retribution' for foreign policy overseas.

2/20/2007 - Nashville, TN Muslim cab driver runs over a Christian after arguing about religion. The young man's ankle and hip are broken by the vehicle.

Source: thereliginofpeace.com If anyone suscribes to Lexis-Nexis or a similar service, these news items could be found.

These are individual incidents perpetrated by people with a religious fervor. Even Eric Rudolph acted alone. Some wags have called this a manifestation of "Sudden Jihad Syndrome."

Are there any websites tracking the violent acts perpetrated by individual Christian zealots?

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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