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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:31:05 [Permalink]
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Pelayo said:
Dude, the basic tenets of Islam are to spread the religion, by force if necessary. The current resurgence of Islam is financed by oil revenues and helped along by massive immigration.
Islam brings, not just a religion, but regulatory requirements that govern everything from eating to defecating. It also has the component called Sharia code of laws that governs civil and criminal conduct. Islam and Sharia are practiced now just as practiced 1200 years ago. There has not been a Islamic Reformation.
As to the threat, I could post a link to any speech by Mahmoud Amadinijad, but this will suffice:
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Once again, explain how these people are a threat to civilization. The US has the most high tech and powerful military on the planet. We have a reserve of fanatical patriotism that would get anyone who isn't a rabid peacemonger up in arms at the threat of an attack on our country (recall 9/12/01, before bush spoiled it). We ARE the most wealthy nation in the world. Some of our corporations, if compared to nations, would make the top 50 list on wealth.
The claim that "muslim jihadists" are a threat to civilization is ridiculous.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 14:25:26 [Permalink]
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Dude, I gather you did not look at any of the clips of the symposium I posted. Don't expect an attack, expect a slow chipping away, demands for special prayer rooms, special food, and a dual legal system (Sharia). If you won't listen to the likes of Daniel Pipes and Wafa Sultan, I don't expect you to listen to little ole me. Of course you won't listen to Pipes; he's a Jew. I just now found that out.
HH, Even the Daily Times of Pakistan made a big deal over the use of Malvo's drawings to "malign Islam."
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_14-12-2003_pg7_47
These two guys may not meet your definition of terrorists, but they were acting based on the tenets of their religion. I have no idea why the government downplays the possibility of religious influence in crime, especially this one. It seems that the Bush administration is bending over backwards to avoid offending Mulsims; there is some speculation, but I see no point in exploring it.
As far as using Andrea Yeats as a example of the possibility of religious crime, apparently her mental illness was enough; for one thing, she would not have a Biblial reference to justify killing her children. Malvo and Mohammad had many verses in the Quram to justify what they did.
http://www.yoel.info/koranwarpassages.htm
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I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 14:39:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
As far as using Andrea Yeats as a example of the possibility of religious crime, apparently her mental illness was enough; for one thing, she would not have a Biblial reference to justify killing her children. |
You doubt a biblical justification for her actions could be found?
So for you, because militant language can be found in the Koran, Islam itself is the real danger. In this view, all devout Muslims are terrorists simply waiting for an opportunity. Have I mischaracterized your position?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 15:25:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Don't expect an attack, expect a slow chipping away, demands for special prayer rooms, special food, and a dual legal system (Sharia). |
And the Christians present demands for prayer in school, demands that their God be acknowledged on public land and public money (as well as in our Pledge), and demands that their religion be acknowledged as special by the Federal government. And because most of the people here are Christian (and few people wanted to be associated with Godless communism in the '50s), they've mostly gotten what they wanted, and our sole legal system finds excuses to back them up. There's already been lots of "chipping away" in the USA, and it continues today.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 16:39:31 [Permalink]
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Dave, exactly, but Muslims have bigger chisels.
Humbert, sometimes I wish forums had a second pop up that says "Do you really really want to submit this comment?" This is one of the few sites where you can go back and edit a comment but I keep forgetting that feature.
You have mischaracterized my position. The spectrum of Muslim believers is like any other religion. There are people who call themselves Christians, Jews, or whatever, but take their religion with a grain of salt. I have met a couple of Muslims who havn't been to Friday Prayers in twenty years. One of my closest acquaintances was a Muslim whose favorite beverage was Coors. Even with "devout" Muslims there are degrees of fervor. When Muslims do "get religion" and decide to take the path of Mohammed, they have plenty of Quranic verses to justify their actions. Salmon Rushdie didn't name his book "The Satanic Verses" just because it sounded cool. He's been living under the Ayatollah Khomeini's death sentence ever since.
The Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979 did not hijack anything; he just returned Iranians to the original message. If you don't want to study Islam, visualize life under the Jewish laws in Leviticus. |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 17:11:11 [Permalink]
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Pelayo said:
| Dude, I gather you did not look at any of the clips of the symposium I posted. Don't expect an attack, expect a slow chipping away, demands for special prayer rooms, special food, and a dual legal system (Sharia). |
To which I can only respond... so what? As has been pointed out, Christians in the US have been doing just this for a long time. Civilization hasn't been destroyed.
FFS, we let people refuse vaccinations for their children if they sign a paper saying they object on religious grounds.
I'll grant you that this kind of thing is a problem we need to deal with (be it christians or muslims doing the "chipping"), but the idea that it is a threat to civilization is ridiculous.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 19:09:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Dave, exactly, but Muslims have bigger chisels. |
No, they just have chisels that explode. The Christians here prefer chisels that went to law school. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 19:40:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
You have mischaracterized my position. The spectrum of Muslim believers is like any other religion. There are people who call themselves Christians, Jews, or whatever, but take their religion with a grain of salt. |
Great, that's my position as well.
| I have met a couple of Muslims who havn't been to Friday Prayers in twenty years. One of my closest acquaintances was a Muslim whose favorite beverage was Coors. Even with "devout" Muslims there are degrees of fervor. When Muslims do "get religion" and decide to take the path of Mohammed, they have plenty of Quranic verses to justify their actions. |
And Christians who want to follow the Jesus who said "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" have plenty of bible verses to back up their militant interpretations as well.
| Salmon Rushdie didn't name his book "The Satanic Verses" just because it sounded cool. He's been living under the Ayatollah Khomeini's death sentence ever since. |
He called his book "The Satanic Verses" because it refers to Koranic verses Mohamed supposedly included only after being tricked by Satan. We can all agree that the death sentence is barbaric and outrageous, though certainly not as catastrophically harmful as a Catholic Bishop telling Africans that condoms are tainted with AIDS. Ignorance in any religion is cause for concern.
| The Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979 did not hijack anything; he just returned Iranians to the original message. |
The same could be cynically said of Fred Phelps.
If you don't want to study Islam, visualize life under the Jewish laws in Leviticus.
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Again...this is different from Christian Dominionists how? The Reconstructionists? Are you even aware of the influence and aims of extremist Christian groups in this country? It isn't just extremist Muslims who want to live in a theocracy ruled by draconian laws. Open your eyes.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/28/2008 19:43:21 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 20:05:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Valiant, you said this: "How about stories of fanatical followers bombing buildings and assassinating doctors? No, not radical Muslims. Army of God, and extremist Christian organization who bombs abortion clinics and shoots abortion providing doctors in their own homes."
I merely pointed out that your claim of abortion clinic violence is overblown when one tries to find recent incidents. Of course some guy might "get religion" tomorrow and start a new wave of violence.
Pointing out only two (2) incidents of abortion clinic violence in 2007 is not handwaving, it is pointing out an exaggeration.
You tried to claim that a certain group was perpetraing violence against clinics, when it appears to be on the wane - at least for now. I'm wondering who really has an "unreasonable hatred for one form of religious extremism."
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No, it is handwaving.
I pointed out the worst of the worst in extremism for Christians. There are many others. Spreading hatred everywhere. Inciting followers to assault people of different sexual identities, to slander the adherents of other religions, to disrupt religious services of other religions, to insist that their God be instructed to school children "for their own good".
An Indiana judge insisted that two people getting a divorce not expose their children to their religion and instead enroll them in Bible School at their local Church in 2005. The two people were Wiccan. The order was overturned on appeal.
Here http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0530wiccans30.html
A Wiccan Temple was discriminated against in Florida with selective zoning enforcement in 1994.
Here http://www.ironoak.org/articles/bs941206.html
How about this from 2005 for Chesterfield County, VA?
Here http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?S=2901434
And that's just against Wiccans alone. Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence and beaten to death by religious zealots because of his sexual identity. Westboro Baptist in it's own little way that they have been for decades decided to protest his funeral (like they have for homosexuals all over the US but only got any press when he targeted US Servicemen) and tried to erect a statue to him in his hometown proclaiming that he entered Hell on the date of his death by not following the edicts of outdated and misinterpreted Levitican Law.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 20:14:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Dude, I gather you did not look at any of the clips of the symposium I posted. Don't expect an attack, expect a slow chipping away, demands for special prayer rooms, special food, and a dual legal system (Sharia). If you won't listen to the likes of Daniel Pipes and Wafa Sultan, I don't expect you to listen to little ole me. Of course you won't listen to Pipes; he's a Jew. I just now found that out.
HH, Even the Daily Times of Pakistan made a big deal over the use of Malvo's drawings to "malign Islam."
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_14-12-2003_pg7_47
These two guys may not meet your definition of terrorists, but they were acting based on the tenets of their religion. I have no idea why the government downplays the possibility of religious influence in crime, especially this one. It seems that the Bush administration is bending over backwards to avoid offending Mulsims; there is some speculation, but I see no point in exploring it.
As far as using Andrea Yeats as a example of the possibility of religious crime, apparently her mental illness was enough; for one thing, she would not have a Biblial reference to justify killing her children. Malvo and Mohammad had many verses in the Quram to justify what they did.
http://www.yoel.info/koranwarpassages.htm
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You do realize that the passages quoted in the link to Qu'ran war passages are from the E Dennison Ross translation which was based on the George Sale translation of 1801 where in the foreword of his translation he revealed his anti-Muslim bias. It is not a reliable or accurate translation. I studied the Qu'ran as part of a comparative religion course in college. The translation I used was from M. K. Shakir and is considered accurate by adherents.
Yeats had perfect Biblical basis for her killing. God caused a bear to come out of the woods and kill children for calling his prophet "baldy". Levitican Law requires the stoning of disobedient children.
The Bible and Qu'ran have about the same violence levels in them. Taken out of context, they can be construed to justify any action.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 10:16:18 [Permalink]
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Section IV of the Yoel site uses the Shakir translation. USC (Calif.) has the three translations for each passage, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, and Shakir.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 10:57:44 [Permalink]
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Let me get this straight - A crime committed by a severely mentally ill woman who may have been influenced by her religion is equivaent to a crime committed by people who use religion as the justification and would be considered sane by any mental health standard.
Preposterous. The point would have been more realistic if Eric Rudolph was the example.
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I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 11:21:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Let me get this straight - A crime committed by a severely mentally ill woman who may have been influenced by her religion is equivaent to a crime committed by people who use religion as the justification and would be considered sane by any mental health standard.
Preposterous. The point would have been more realistic if Eric Rudolph was the example. |
I wasn't arguing equivalence, just pointing out that many crimes can appear to have religious motivations--even by the perpetrator's own admission--but that doesn't mean it's necessarily so. And far from being considered "sane by any mental health standard," there is evidence that Malvo, at least, was brainwashed under a regiment of restricted sleep, diet, and information.
But this discussion is becoming sidetracked. Even if I grant you that religion was 100% the sole cause behind creating the DC snipers, we're still talking a pair of crazed gunmen who couldn't do any lasting damage to the country. Not real, long-term damage like, say, amending the Constitution or taking over the Justice Department or loading up the Supreme Court with religious ideologues. You're still failing to demonstrate how Islam is a danger to America to the degree that radical Christian elements are.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/29/2008 11:23:09 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 19:56:31 [Permalink]
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And the Shakir quotes are taken out of context whereby the Qu'ran only allows violence in self defense, not offensively to inflict their religion on others.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
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"Muslim jihadists"
