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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:55:09 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by marfknox |
| First, this is just a shitty, pompous thing to say. You used the word "normal" for men who are unable to be turned on by "fat and/or ugly"(we can only assume by conventional standards of beauty) women. This implies that men who are sexually attracted to overweight or conventionally unattractive women are abnormal, and not being normal is a pejorative. |
They are definitely in the slim minority. That's my point.
| Basically you are insulting both fat/ugly women and the men who find them arousing |
I am just reminding you of the fact that hot women get the guys they want 99% of the time and that men will over look many factors if the women is hot. I am not saying that I think it is fair or non-insulting to fat women and the men who love them, only that it is a fact of life. So when you make the point that it is hypocritical for many men to find male/male sex disgusting while being turned on by female/female sex I simply point out that fact that most men can be turned on by a women taking a dump in an outhouse if she is smoking hot and getting revved up, while two butt ugly women engaged in sex will do nothing for most men. All while two hot men engaged in anal sex disgusts most men and women. So the moral of the story is that men can look past many many factors if the women is hot and most men and women find anal sex disgusting.
| (as certainly plenty do - just look at the alternative porn industry!) |
Umm, no thanks.
| But more importantly, Bill, your whole argument is that gay sex is unnatural 'cause (supposedly) most people think anal sex is gross. |
No. Because one look at the human anatomy and even the most basic layman can see that this was never intended to fit into that.
| But if most people also think ugly people having sex is gross, it stands to your reasoning that ugly people having sex is unnatural. |
No not at all. The human anatomy clearly shows that in anal sex this was never intended to fit into that, wither your ugly or not makes no difference.
| Another answer is much better common sense: You are not turned on by fat women having sex because you personally don't find a generously full figure hot, |
No. This has nothing to do with me personally. I am just repeating the facts of life and one fact is that most men are much more turned on by supermodels and SI Swimsuit cover girls then generously full figure women. I am not saying it is right or fair or that is should be this way, only that it is this way.
| and you are repulsed by men having sex because your personally are straight. |
No. Anal sex between a man and a women repulses me almost just as much.
| Thankfully not everyone is like you. After all, variety is the spice of life. |
And here is where you and I seem to most disagree. I find man/man and man/women anal sex to be repulsive while you see it as a spice of life.
| French kissing is a sex act which produces zero offspring. Clearly the mouth, teeth, and tongue are best suited for eating. STDs and other diseases are commonly spread by this act since the mouth is an opening in the body, teeming with germs. Most men are repulsed by the image of two men passionately open-mouth kissing, and most women are repulsed by this and by the image of two women passionately kissing. Men think women kissing is hot, but only if they are hot women doing it. Therefore french kissing is unnatural. |
You like to point that men can be repulsed by man/man kissing but can be turned on by women/women kissing. I simply remind you that men can over look many many things if the women is smoking hot. So I believe it is more that they are turned on by hot women then women kissing. I am not saying this is right, wrong, or any different, only that men can over look many things when hot women are involved. That is just a fact.
| But we've been through this before, and I don't expect you to pay attention or respond this time either, |
Well we are deadlocked. I find man/man and man/women anal sex disgusting and repulsive while you find it to be a spice of life. And neither of seems willing to budge from our position. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 07:31:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But wouldn't you prefer watching two very hot women over two repulsive women?
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What does a hot woman or a repulsive one look like?
I bet you'd find Ann Coulter hot, but I'd only find her tolerable if you duct-tape her mouth and put a brown paper bad over her head.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 07:38:59 [Permalink]
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I didn't see anything about Christians, just “virginity” pledges. Not that I would think that there would not be any who claim to be Christians within the numbers of those who take some pledge, but rather I just find it interesting that you choose to make the claim that:
| making it quite popular among young Christians, bill. You're still a virgin if you abstain from vaginal intercourse, or so the reasoning goes. |
singling out Christians and then implying that many of them hold the position that anal sex does not affect their virgin status. I ask you to give me some numbers on that claim and you cite a piece where I could not find the word “Christian” one time? In a new world of alleged tolerance you sir have demonstrated yourself to be nothing but an old fashioned ignorant bigot. Why I bother to respond to a bigot I do not know, so obviously indoctrinated in his ways. |
Surely you're not serious? Are you suggesting that non-Evangelical Christians go around making virginity pledges in the US? Please tell me you're not seriuos. It is a strictly born-again Christian phenomenon. But by all means, if you've got some statistics on the number of non-Christian teens taking abstinence pledges, correct me. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 07:48:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Okay, now explain why the same homophobia categories and rules don't apply to women. This is something which has confounded me personally because, while I do find beautiful women visually appealing, watching a film which eventually involved two naked women doing stuff to each other makes me a bit nauseous and very turned off. And films or imagery involving to gay men that I find sexually attractive is a big turn on. However, in talking to my girlfriends, these reactions are not the norm. Most other women I know tend to be just as turned off by images of men going at it as women. Are women just being culturally conditioned to be prudish? Or are average, straight women's sexual preferences more complex and diverse than average, straight men's?
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I'm not sure what the answer is... but for me, I'm just turned on by sex in general. My best friend is gay, and we used to be roommates. One time he left one of his gay porns in the DVD player, and I happened upon it. It was pretty hot, I gotta say. I can also be turned on by two women. Meanwhile, I'm a perfectly straight female. I just think sex is hot, regardless of the gender of the parties involved. Now... that's not to say I would be turned on by some super freaky tranny porn, but who knows? I've never seen any.
Anyway, my theory about sexuality is that everybody's different and it's a fluid thing. I say... whatever turns you on, do it, as long as you're not hurting anybody else. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
| Edited by - emsby on 03/05/2008 08:46:05 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:26:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I am not saying that I think it is fair or non-insulting to fat women and the men who love them, only that it is a fact of life. |
And it's a fact of life that in many cultures throughout history, fat women have been "hot."
Rosie O'Donnell told a story (ten or 15 years ago) about going to Mexico with a bunch of supermodels, and the men down there ignored the models and kept chatting up Rosie. She finally asked one of them what was up, and he replied, "Bone is for dog, meat is for man." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:27:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by emsby
I say... whatever turns you on, do it, as long as you're not hurting anybody else. |
Whatever cremes your Twinkie. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:44:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
But wouldn't you prefer watching two very hot women over two repulsive women?
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What does a hot woman or a repulsive one look like?
I bet you'd find Ann Coulter hot, but I'd only find her tolerable if you duct-tape her mouth and put a brown paper bad over her head.
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
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Mileage differs, obviously. Which is the lesson of this thread. When we elevate our personal tastes to the level of having objective force, we err, and can harm others.
I am completely put off by male gay sex, but I know this is merely a part of my subjective sexual identity, over which I have no more control than do gay men. At the same time, I intellectually and emotionally respect and admire any adults who have love for one another. After a lifetime of being in love, I've recently been too many years without it, and I think any who have love are lucky bastards, regardless of the gender combinations involved.
I made no choice to become a heterosexual, but I'm both satisfied and stuck with what nature gave me. Lesbian activity is not a special turn-on for me, but I do like to see (attractive) women. Two is better than one, if looking is all that's going on.
Were I far more desperate than I already am, I might be able to tolerate Ann Coulter's face, so long as those evil eyes were obscured, and she kept her thoughts to herself. But that creepy king crab body would have to be kept in a bag.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/05/2008 08:46:52 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:49:23 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by emsby |
| Surely you're not serious?Are you suggesting that non-Evangelical Christians go around making virginity pledges in the US? Please tell me you're not seriuos |
http://www.siecus.org/policy/virginity_pledges.pdf
| .It is a strictly born-again Christian phenomenon. But by all means, if you've got some statistics on the number of non-Christian teens taking abstinence pledges, correct me. |
I asked H.H. to give me his source that was claiming that teens having anal sex after taking a "virginity" pledge was strictly a Christian problem and exactly which Christians were claiming that anal sex did not effect a person's "virgin" status and he gave me a link that never mentioned the word "Christian" one time in the entire piece, that I could find. Now maybe you and he can corroborate and come back with something that actually mentions the word "Christian" and backs up both your notions, that teens partaking in anal sex to maintain their "virgin" status after "virginity" pledges is strictly a Christian phenomena. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 09:07:53 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| And it's a fact of life that in many cultures throughout history, fat women have been "hot." |
I never denied that some men can find fat women hot.
| Rosie O'Donnell told a story (ten or 15 years ago) about going to Mexico with a bunch of supermodels, and the men down there ignored the models and kept chatting up Rosie. She finally asked one of them what was up, and he replied, "Bone is for dog, meat is for man." |
LOL!!!!! Rossie O'Donell and the Mexicans that lust for her. LOL!!!!!! I needed that one today. Thanks Dave!
OK Dave, you start a men's mag featuring Rosie O'Donnell type cover girls and I'll start mine with Cindy Crawford type cover girls and may the best mag win. Next time your in your local grocery store take a look at what mags dominate the racks and it will soon be clear who's mag, between Dave and I, will be picked up. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 09:17:38 [Permalink]
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I asked H.H. to give me his source that was claiming that teens having anal sex after taking a "virginity" pledge was strictly a Christian problem and exactly which Christians were claiming that anal sex did not effect a person's "virgin" status and he gave me a link that never mentioned the word "Christian" one time in the entire piece, that I could find. Now maybe you and he can corroborate and come back with something that actually mentions the word "Christian" and backs up both your notions, that teens partaking in anal sex to maintain their "virgin" status after "virginity" pledges is strictly a Christian phenomena.
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First of all, your link does nothing to support your position. It clearly states that these abstinence-only programs are run and sponsored by Christian organizations and that these people are now pushing for these programs to be taught in public schools. It says nothing about how many non-Christian children are actually taking these pledges. Since it's an Evangelical Christian phenomenon my guess is, not that many.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity_pledge
From the article:
Virginity pledges (or abstinence pledges) are commitments made by teenagers and young adults to refrain from sexual intercourse until marriage. They are most common in the United States, especially among Evangelical Christian denominations.
Virginity pledge programs take a variety of stances on the role of religion in the pledge: some use religion to motivate the pledge, putting Biblical quotes on the cards, while others use statistics and arguments to motivate the pledge. Regardless of the approach, the vast majority of virginity pledge programs are run and staffed by individuals with ties to Christian organizations, mostly evangelical, although the Catholic Church sponsors both secular and a religious virginity pledges. |
Since it's clear that the children who are taking these pledges are by and large Evangelical Christians and the article that H.H. posted shows that many children who take these pledges tend to engage in risky sexual behaviors like unprotected anal and oral sex, one can put 2 and 2 together and figure out that this is largely a Christian problem. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 09:20:32 [Permalink]
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Bill, I know you don't want to see it, but it'd be only a small effort to load you up with links to fat porn. And makers of porn are nothing if not pragmatic: if it doesn't make money, they won't bother shooting it.
Heck, name any fetish, and there's probably already a magazine devoted to it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 10:21:20 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | So when you make the point that it is hypocritical for many men to find male/male sex disgusting while being turned on by female/female sex... |
What!? When the hell did I make that point?
My point is that your claim that anal sex is unnatural is flat out wrong. You keep bringing up anatomy – what does that mean? I brought up French kissing because the same argument could be made about the mouth. Mouths are primarily for eating. There is no obvious adaptation in the mouth which makes it useful for sex. People can have sex and procreate just find without kissing. So is kissing unnatural? And if it is natural, how is your argument about anal sex fundamentally different from kissing?
If scientists observe some animal behavior that occurs regularly, even in a minority of the population, and continues to happen over a long period of time, not only is that regarded as natural, but it is thought to have some useful purpose. People have been having anal sex since there were people. The purpose could simply be the same as the purpose of other sexual acts which don't lead to procreation, such as kissing, heavy petting, and oral sex. The purposes are social, not just procreation. That is why humans are naturally drawn to forms of affection other than penis-inserted-in-vagina-until-it-comes.
Gay sex is perfectly natural. That is why it is found in nature! Bonobo apes (or closest genetic relative) engage in homosexual acts far more than humans do, and it seems to serve the purpose of smoothing over fights between apes, strengthening social alliances, easing social tensions, establishing dominant/submissive relationships, and making new friends.
| So the moral of the story is that men can look past many many factors if the women is hot and most men and women find anal sex disgusting. |
You got to back that up with evidence. On page 2 of this conversation, Cune posted a link to an article which cites statistics on anal sex from many different studies over several decades, Put all together, more than 10% of the human population – and sometimes over 50% - at least tries anal sex. This strongly suggests that people are more curious than disgusted by it.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 10:53:42 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by emsby |
| First of all, your link does nothing to support your position. |
Sure it does. Your claim was that teens who took virginity pledges was strictly a Christian phenomena, which I challenged. The piece clearly shows this is not strictly a Christian phenomena. Which was your claim.
| It clearly states that these abstinence-only programs are run and sponsored by Christian organizations and that these people are now pushing for these programs to be taught in public schools. |
It says that many of the programs the government has adopted came from Christian organizations. So what? Your claim was that only Christian kids ever took any of these pledges, which the link clearly disputes.
| It says nothing about how many non-Christian children are actually taking these pledges. |
Your claim was that zero % of the children taking these pledges were non-Christian. The piece makes it quite clear that you were mistaken. If one non-Christian kid took a pledge then your claim is false.
Since it's an Evangelical Christian phenomenon my guess is, not that many.
Since it's clear that the children who are taking these pledges are by and large Evangelical Christians and the article that H.H. posted shows that many children who take these pledges tend to engage in risky sexual behaviors like unprotected anal and oral sex, one can put 2 and 2 together and figure out that this is largely a Christian problem. |
Let's sum this up.
*You claim that virginity pledges are strictly a Christian phenomena, which is not true.
* HH implies that only Christian kids grow up ignorant of sex and then have ignorant unsafe sex as teens, again, not true.
The fact of the matter is that other sexual avenues are explored by virginity pledge takers. Whether or not the Christians lead in this group was not your claim. Your claim was that strictly Christians make up this group. Not true.
Now we also have all the kids who are engaging in vaginal intercourse as well, which my guess would be that secular kids lead this area, but Christian kids are sure not immune.
So the reality of the situation is that we have a whole genration of kids, Christian and non-Christian, who have parents who do not talk about sex with them but rather leave that up to Hollywood and the government. And the results of this are what they are. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 10:56:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Bill, I know you don't want to see it, but it'd be only a small effort to load you up with links to fat porn. And makers of porn are nothing if not pragmatic: if it doesn't make money, they won't bother shooting it.
Heck, name any fetish, and there's probably already a magazine devoted to it.
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You can make tree porn and someone will buy it. Put there is a reason SI does not come out with the special fat women swimsuit edition, most men don't want to see it. The key word here being "most" and not "all." |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 11:37:48 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by marfknox |
| You got to back that up with evidence. On page 2 of this conversation, Cune posted a link to an article which cites statistics on anal sex from many different studies over several decades, |
| found that 9 percent of non-married males and 28 percent of non-married females had engaged in anal sex at least once. |
Hmm, only 9% of unmarried males have even tried it.
| Among married subjects, the numbers were much lower--around 11 percent for both men and women. |
So most must find it repulsive, even when married.
| In 1974, Playboy magazine published a huge survey of over 2000 people. Depending on the age of the respondent, between 14 and 25 percent of people said they had tried anal sex at least once. |
Well I would expect Playboy subscribers to be little higher in the anal sex market then say Home and Garden. But still even among playboy only 25% who have even tried it? That leaves 3/4's of the people who have never even tried it.
| A more recent study, conducted in 1990 at the Kinsey Institute, found that 27 percent of male and 24 percent of female college students had anal sex at least once. |
Again, I would expect the college survey to be higher then a national average just as I would playboy. Those crazy college kids trying to find themselves and all. And even among them only roughly 25% have even tried it. I am sure there is a percent among the 25% that did try it who were disgusted by it and never tried it again.
| One researcher, who surveyed one group of people in the 1970s then another in the late 1980s, offers a good point of comparison. In the first survey, 25 percent of women had anal sex and 8 percent reported engaging in it regularly. In the second, 72 percent had anal sex, and 23 percent reported engaging in it regularly. |
A. What group is this?
B. If 72 and 25% tried anal sex and only 23 and 8% report regular practice then 2 of every 3 who tried anal sex choose to not engage in it anymore after their experience.
| The most recent U.S. data from a national representative sample comes from the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG), which was conducted on over 12,000 men and women aged 15 to 44. Results show that 34 percent of men and 30 percent of women reported engaging in anal sex at least once. |
So from the latest survey we can conclude that roughly 32% of the population have tried anal sex. Among that 32% anywhere from 50% to 66% will never experiment again after the experience. Which means that roughly 10-15 % of todays hetro population from ages 15-44 engages in anal sex on some kind of regular basis.
| But we've been through this before, and I don't expect you to pay attention |
But I did, and according to your study the overwhelming majority of Americans, including those who have experimented with the act, find it disgusting enough to never engage in it, or to never engage in it again.
Again, you and I appear to be at a crossroads. I, along with a majority of Americans, find anal sex to be disgusting enough to have never engaged in it. And of those who have engaged in it 50-66% have found it disgusting enough to never engage in the activity again. While you and your minority on the other hand find it to be a spice of life.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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The secrets of men: unbalanced homophobia
