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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 03:15:56 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: | Intelligence can often be misperceived as arrogance. Ignoramuses often confuse being corrected with being belittled. While I see many religious people who are inflexible and rigid in their thinking, I see few parallels among critical thinkers, who by definition are willing to question their assumptions. "Arrogance" and "elitism" are charges most often leveled against scientists. But science is meritocratic, so its "elitism" is actually one of its strengths. The certitude of religion, on the other hand, is the kind born from contemptible stupidity and defended only by the vilest of the intellectually bankrupt apologists . |
While I totally agree with your point that being right and confident/vocal about it is often confused with arrogance, in this paragraph you have also put "religious people" and "critical thinkers" in two different and seemingly opposite categories. For many religious people, doubt and critical thinking even about their religious beliefs, opposed to blindly accepting a rigid and literal theology, is part of their religion. And there are plenty of nonreligious people who are just as irrational about plenty of topics and who have rigid beliefs about things which are false.
I understand that religion gets special attention from many skeptics because many in society still try to give it a special exemption from criticism. Religious claims, however, should be treated just the same as anything else - given no more or less attention than any other claim. Too often I find skeptical communities outright dismissing people with any religious beliefs as non-critical thinkers, even when they meet religious people who are much better critical thinkers than the average person. Generalizations about large and diverse groups of people don't further the cause of critical thinking. They only reinforce prejudices. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2008 : 09:50:25 [Permalink]
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marf said:
| For many religious people, doubt and critical thinking even about their religious beliefs, opposed to blindly accepting a rigid and literal theology, is part of their religion. |
You just love this particular theme don't you? Repeating the same bullshit over and over is never going to make it true. The application of doubt and critical thinking produces only one outcome when applied to religion, and that outcome reduces the number of religious people in the world.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2008 : 12:47:51 [Permalink]
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How to best reduce the number of religious people in the world:
That'll show 'em!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 13:21:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
How to best reduce the number of religious people in the world:
That'll show 'em!
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I'd think that the both of us should move to Australia/New Zeeland first. Then drop one on the northern hemiphere. Hopefully most of the bad effects will be localised to the northern side of the Equator thanks to the weather systems.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2008 : 00:11:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Humbert wrote: | Intelligence can often be misperceived as arrogance. Ignoramuses often confuse being corrected with being belittled. While I see many religious people who are inflexible and rigid in their thinking, I see few parallels among critical thinkers, who by definition are willing to question their assumptions. "Arrogance" and "elitism" are charges most often leveled against scientists. But science is meritocratic, so its "elitism" is actually one of its strengths. The certitude of religion, on the other hand, is the kind born from contemptible stupidity and defended only by the vilest of the intellectually bankrupt apologists . |
While I totally agree with your point that being right and confident/vocal about it is often confused with arrogance, in this paragraph you have also put "religious people" and "critical thinkers" in two different and seemingly opposite categories. For many religious people, doubt and critical thinking even about their religious beliefs, opposed to blindly accepting a rigid and literal theology, is part of their religion. And there are plenty of nonreligious people who are just as irrational about plenty of topics and who have rigid beliefs about things which are false.
I understand that religion gets special attention from many skeptics because many in society still try to give it a special exemption from criticism. Religious claims, however, should be treated just the same as anything else - given no more or less attention than any other claim. Too often I find skeptical communities outright dismissing people with any religious beliefs as non-critical thinkers, even when they meet religious people who are much better critical thinkers than the average person. Generalizations about large and diverse groups of people don't further the cause of critical thinking. They only reinforce prejudices.
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Looks like I am taking some heat for overgeneralizing. But let must just say I've been stuck in an abusive religious organization for many years now, so you can be sure I won't be saying crap like "religious people can be THOUGHTFUL TOO!". I'm just not ready to "make nice", as the Dixie Chicks would say.
So you know |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2008 : 03:43:09 [Permalink]
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timochwc:
Looks like I am taking some heat for overgeneralizing. But let must just say I've been stuck in an abusive religious organization for many years now, so you can be sure I won't be saying crap like "religious people can be THOUGHTFUL TOO!". I'm just not ready to "make nice", as the Dixie Chicks would say.
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This is none of my business, and don't be bashful about saying so, but I note that you are using the present tense. Would you elaborate? Or should I shut the fuck up about it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2008 : 21:43:35 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: | You just love this particular theme don't you? |
Yes, I do. But notice that I don't bring it up. I keep repeating this line of thought only because a line of thought that I disagree with keeps being stated by other people. And those other people are just as guilty as I for redundancy of this particular debate. If all participants are interested, what's the big deal?
| Repeating the same bullshit over and over is never going to make it true. |
It isn't bullshit. It is my current conclusion on this matter. Bullshit involves a disregard for truth. I am making an honest attempt at finding truth. I might be wrong, but my quest is none-the-lest earnest and I am giving it the best of my intellectual efforts.
And again, others such as yourself have also repeated the same arguments over and over and over. Like me, you do this because you continue to think you are correct and you continue to be interested in voicing your thoughts. Glad to see we have something in common.
| The application of doubt and critical thinking produces only one outcome when applied to religion, and that outcome reduces the number of religious people in the world. |
We already know you disagree with me on this matter. Got anything new to add to the debate other than insults? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2008 : 20:42:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dude wrote: | You just love this particular theme don't you? |
Yes, I do. But notice that I don't bring it up. I keep repeating this line of thought only because a line of thought that I disagree with keeps being stated by other people. And those other people are just as guilty as I for redundancy of this particular debate. If all participants are interested, what's the big deal?
| Repeating the same bullshit over and over is never going to make it true. |
It isn't bullshit. It is my current conclusion on this matter. Bullshit involves a disregard for truth. I am making an honest attempt at finding truth. I might be wrong, but my quest is none-the-lest earnest and I am giving it the best of my intellectual efforts.
And again, others such as yourself have also repeated the same arguments over and over and over. Like me, you do this because you continue to think you are correct and you continue to be interested in voicing your thoughts. Glad to see we have something in common.
| The application of doubt and critical thinking produces only one outcome when applied to religion, and that outcome reduces the number of religious people in the world. |
We already know you disagree with me on this matter. Got anything new to add to the debate other than insults?
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point taken. too bad nobody here wants to hear anything more you have to say
BTW your first reply was totally off base. Obviously you should have known when I talk about religious people, I was talking more about ppl of the Jerry Falwell stripe than Dalai Lama |
| Edited by - timothwc on 03/24/2008 20:52:09 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2008 : 21:33:57 [Permalink]
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timothwc wrote: | BTW your first reply was totally off base. Obviously you should have known when I talk about religious people, I was talking more about ppl of the Jerry Falwell stripe than Dalai Lama |
If you are misunderstood then it is your responsibility to clarify what you meant, not blame other people for taking your words at face value, especially on an online forum where the nuances and efficiency of in-person conversation are lost. It was not obvious that you meant only a certain type of religious people. I've been involved with freethought groups all over the USA for 10 years now, and in my experience plenty of them make very negative judgments about all religious people. There was a gentleman in my local Humanist group in Columbus, OH who would regularly share his thought that people who believe in God are mentally ill. You are someone new on this forum that I barely know, so why would I assume anything other than the literal meaning of your words? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2008 : 22:10:46 [Permalink]
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marf said:
Your assertion that religion is some rational process, and that rational people can reach rational religious conclusions*, is pure distilled 200proof bullshit.
*unevidenced conclusions affirmed by their religion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 09:03:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
point taken. too bad nobody here wants to hear anything more you have to say |
A bit arrogant for someone who has 13 posts here, no? Hell... it's a bit arrogant no matter how many posts you have.
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Yes, I am your typical arrogant turd who think he's right ALL THE TIME.
But having been pushed around much of my life, lately I've taken some liberty fudging some facts to make my point stronger, as a typical person would do |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 09:08:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
timothwc wrote: | BTW your first reply was totally off base. Obviously you should have known when I talk about religious people, I was talking more about ppl of the Jerry Falwell stripe than Dalai Lama |
If you are misunderstood then it is your responsibility to clarify what you meant, not blame other people for taking your words at face value, especially on an online forum where the nuances and efficiency of in-person conversation are lost. It was not obvious that you meant only a certain type of religious people. I've been involved with freethought groups all over the USA for 10 years now, and in my experience plenty of them make very negative judgments about all religious people. There was a gentleman in my local Humanist group in Columbus, OH who would regularly share his thought that people who believe in God are mentally ill. You are someone new on this forum that I barely know, so why would I assume anything other than the literal meaning of your words?
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Oh the joy of arguing over minutia. I acknowledge your concern about the intolerance humanists have over religious people, okay?
I thought this would be a good place to find support, and instead all I get is this tit-for-tat, tooth and nail crap |
| Edited by - timothwc on 03/25/2008 09:18:16 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 09:55:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by timothwc
I thought this would be a good place to find support, and instead all I get is this tit-for-tat, tooth and nail crap
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Marf fears the day when all theists will be rounded up and stuck in cages for the mere crime of believing in god. So certain is she that this dark era of persecution will come to pass, that she has made it her personal mission to fight for the trampled rights of the religious among us at all times. In her world, most theists are sane, reasonable, respectful individuals and most atheists are discriminatory, prejudiced reactionaries who must be constantly admonished to respect the beliefs of others. Oh, sure, a few extremists might give religion a bad name, but the real danger we must vigilantly guard against is a secular society that promotes reason as superior to magical thinking. That would just make too many people feel bad about themselves. They can't help being religious, you know. And anyway, most of them arrived at their religion through reason and analytic thinking.
Basically, she lives in opposite land. The amount of effort she spends criticizing atheists who may, in casual conversation, dare to generalize religious believers is inversely proportional to the threat each group poses to a liberal democracy. She's an atheist who clearly envies the religious their faith. She even attends worship services.
I wouldn't bother myself worrying about her opinion on this issue. Many here consider her incredibly misguided and have for a very long time. She still makes valuable contributions on other topics, however.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 08:35:05 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: | Your assertion that religion is some rational process, and that rational people can reach rational religious conclusions*, is pure distilled 200proof bullshit. |
I never asserted that religion is a rational process. Assuming by "religious conclusions" you mean "belief in literal supernatural claims", I never asserted that such conclusions can be arrived at through rational processes.
Dude, you don't understand what I'm saying. I don't know how to rephrase it in a way that you will get what I'm saying. But one thing I'm sure of is that we're not talking about the same thing. Probably at this point, at least for now, worth giving up since you aren't responding directly, point by point, to what I'm saying, but instead you are mis-summarizing what I've said into something I have not said. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Why religious people are so arrogant
