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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 08:37:08 [Permalink]
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timothwc wrote: | I thought this would be a good place to find support, and instead all I get is this tit-for-tat, tooth and nail crap |
Find support? This isn't a support group for nonreligious people. It is a forum for skeptical discourse. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2008 : 09:38:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dude, you don't understand what I'm saying. |
I'm not sure that I understand you any more, either. I mean, I know that Dude's and H.'s distillations of your ideas are incorrect (you've said so), but I'm not getting what is correct, either. While I agree wholeheartedly that not all theists are fundamentalist whack-jobs, you have seemed to indicate that some liberal theists attained or maintain their theism through a rational thought process.
On another point, "literal supernatural beliefs" seems to be a favorite idea of yours, but to what should I contrast it? Metaphorical supernatural beliefs? Or something more along the lines of Einstein's god (which was in no way supernatural)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 10:01:07 [Permalink]
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Dave, I believe this is the quote which you are talking about:
For many religious people, doubt and critical thinking even about their religious beliefs, opposed to blindly accepting a rigid and literal theology, is part of their religion. And there are plenty of nonreligious people who are just as irrational about plenty of topics and who have rigid beliefs about things which are false.
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And I believe (but am not certain) that Marf is talkng about a situation such as:
Preacher: In book X, chapter Y, line Z-W, when Jesus says, "...", he means _____.
Religious Critical Thinker: Well, I don't think that's so. Look at this, this, and this. That contradicts what you just said.
It's not that they use a rational process to reach their belief in a higher power, but rather rational processes in that belief. Perhaps it has to do with compartmentalization, perhaps something else, I'm not sure. Personally I've known people who use rational processes in everything but religion, though I can't say I've ever met a person of this type. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 10:16:22 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | I'm not sure that I understand you any more, either. I mean, I know that Dude's and H.'s distillations of your ideas are incorrect (you've said so), but I'm not getting what is correct, either. While I agree wholeheartedly that not all theists are fundamentalist whack-jobs, you have seemed to indicate that some liberal theists attained or maintain their theism through a rational thought process. |
Thanks so much for this post. This is what I needed: for someone to tell me that I'm being confusing rather than just assume I mean something stupid and then act hostile toward me. I just posted a new thread where I try to address this confusion.
| On another point, "literal supernatural beliefs" seems to be a favorite idea of yours, but to what should I contrast it? Metaphorical supernatural beliefs? Or something more along the lines of Einstein's god (which was in no way supernatural)? |
I mean religious people for whom the object of their faith isn't any kind of claim about reality at all, but rather more a feeling about some nebulous concept of the "divine". Einstein's god would maybe qualify, but from what I've read, it seems he was more of an actual atheist who just used the term "God" as a synonym for the universe and everything. When I say "literal supernatural beliefs" I mean specific claims, such as that there really was this guy Jesus who really was God and human and really rose from the dead, and God is really a discreet being with His own self awareness. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 10:39:20 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: | She even attends worship services. |
Most of your last post was exaggerations and misrepresentations of my opinions on this forum written in a way to be obviously absurd. As Ricky said, maybe you were joking? That why I deleted my original response to it. But I would like to ask about this one. What worship services are you talking about? The only worship services I go to are the Quaker mtgs for worship that I am required to attend as part of my job as a teacher at a Quaker school. Also, when my mom was visiting this holiday season I did offer to go with her to Catholic church so she wouldn't have to go alone in a city she's unfamiliar with. That said, we went to the progressive church that caters to the gay community in Philly. I told her about another more traditional church, but said I personally wouldn't be willing to go there. And regardless, that wasn't me going to worship, that was me hanging out as an outside observer while other people are worshipping. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 10:48:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I mean religious people for whom the object of their faith isn't any kind of claim about reality at all, but rather more a feeling about some nebulous concept of the "divine". Einstein's god would maybe qualify, but from what I've read, it seems he was more of an actual atheist who just used the term "God" as a synonym for the universe and everything. When I say "literal supernatural beliefs" I mean specific claims, such as that there really was this guy Jesus who really was God and human and really rose from the dead, and God is really a discreet being with His own self awareness. |
I thought that's what you meant, and I'd only like to point out that when some (such as me) have said around here that religious belief is dangerous, and you've objected that we're treating even progressive theist as if they have literal supernatural beliefs, that is in fact not what I (at least, won't speak for others) have been thinking. In other words, "nebulous concepts of the divine" can be just as dangerous (from a socio-political perspective) as beliefs in a literally risen Christ because they're just as much an embracing of the irrational. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 13:41:47 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | when some (such as me) have said around here that religious belief is dangerous, and you've objected that we're treating even progressive theist as if they have literal supernatural beliefs, that is in fact not what I (at least, won't speak for others) have been thinking. In other words, "nebulous concepts of the divine" can be just as dangerous (from a socio-political perspective) as beliefs in a literally risen Christ because they're just as much an embracing of the irrational. |
Holy shit; I think we finally pinpointed what we've been disagreeing about for the longest time!  Because I totally disagree that those kind of beliefs are "just as much an embracing of the irrational." |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 14:12:45 [Permalink]
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But "nebulous concepts of the divine" must be better than having "beliefs in a literally risen Christ". It is the literal interpretation of such a bronze-age religious text as the Bible that give the religiously insane irrational the ruler, by which to measure themselves and others. And such breeds arrogance. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 16:21:49 [Permalink]
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Speaking of arrogance, guess what Ray Comfort is up to. Yep. That's the same guy who's instituted rules forcing non-believers to respect their beliefs (for our own good, he says), but he doesn't see any need to respect non-believers beliefs.
I'd love to comment on that particular post but I've been commenting over there for a while now, and if I say what I want to say, I'll get banned for sure.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 03/26/2008 16:35:36 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 17:35:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Holy shit; I think we finally pinpointed what we've been disagreeing about for the longest time! Because I totally disagree that those kind of beliefs are "just as much an embracing of the irrational." |
Well, I'd like to hear why they're not.
I mean, I can dream up all sorts of nebulous ideas about something that some would consider "divine," but I can only turn them into beliefs by accepting something as true for which I have no evidence, an act which requires the willful surrender of reason (embracing the irrational). Things only get more irrational when one takes such beliefs and uses them as a basis for prayer or ritual.
And yes, Mab, less irrationality is "better," but anyone who shows a tendency towards embracing irrationality is a danger simply due to the potential for them to rise to policy positions or simply give their friends advice, because predicting when and how their irrationality will surface and be used as a basis for telling others what to do can be difficult without a lot of experience, to say the least. Is one more likely to get sound advice on, say, child education from a Unitarian than a Pentacostal? Sure, but let's set surety as the goal. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 19:13:07 [Permalink]
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| Well, I'd like to hear why they're not. |
For starters, any religious claims for which there is scientific evidence against are more irrational than claims which have no evidence one way or the other. For example: the Biblical flood. Any religious claim for which there is no evidence against but there is natural precedent against (such as miracles) are less irrational than the claims which have evidence against them, but more irrational that claims of things which are outside the known natural world. There are definitely levels of irrationality, not all irrational claims are equal.
| I mean, I can dream up all sorts of nebulous ideas about something that some would consider "divine," but I can only turn them into beliefs by accepting something as true for which I have no evidence, an act which requires the willful surrender of reason (embracing the irrational). |
What does it mean to accept something as true? What does it mean to believe? Isn't that also done on a scale where some beliefs are held more tentatively than others due to lack of information? Also, if something is nebulous enough, it really isn't an irrational belief. For instance, when people say they believe in "love" as something more than the sum of physical attraction, collection of experiences, and feelings which make up a relationship, I don't think they are making a supernatural or irrational claim. I don't think they are making any kind of claim about reality, so I guess that's not really a belief, but people use the word "believe" in that way regardless. I honestly don't know what people mean when they tell me they believe in "the divine" and they can never be more specific than saying what it is not. I'm not sure what to call this kind of "belief", but it doesn't fit the definition of a literal and specific claim about reality, so I can't see how it is an irrational belief or even a belief in that sense at all.
In short, I think there is a whole broad gradation surrounding worldviews, and it isn't even a linear scale that runs from just rational to irrational. There are other elements of the mind at play having to do with abstract thinking and emotion.
| Things only get more irrational when one takes such beliefs and uses them as a basis for prayer or ritual. |
How does that make things more irrational? I have an atheist uncle who likes the concept of lent and so he gives something up for 40 days before Easter every year. I also have a friend who believes in re-incarnation but who religiously attends Episcopalian mass every major Christian holiday. I think a lot of the rituals people engage in are partially how we engage the world on the level of emotion and meaning. Rituals have associations with not only supernatural claims, but also concepts, as well as personal associations with family and culture. I don't see how it is rational or irrational to engage in rituals. What an be judged as rational or irrational is only the thoughts behind the rituals, and that varies from person to person.
| anyone who shows a tendency towards embracing irrationality is a danger simply due to the potential for them to rise to policy positions or simply give their friends advice, because predicting when and how their irrationality will surface and be used as a basis for telling others what to do can be difficult without a lot of experience, to say the least. |
Slippery slope argument! Every person engages in irrational thinking from time to time, and if someone has a clean track record when it comes to action and speech so far, it can never be predicted it, when, and how anyone's irrationality will surface in a new and damaging way, especially if they are put in a position they've never been in before.
| Is one more likely to get sound advice on, say, child education from a Unitarian than a Pentacostal? Sure, but let's set surety as the goal. |
Once you get away from religious which by their institutional nature coerce people toward a particular irrational set of beliefs (Pentacostals would qualify) then the likelihood of getting more or less sound advice breaks down to 50/50. In other words, I think you are likely to get just as sound advice about any secular matter from a United Methodist as you are from a Humanist, Quaker, or Presbyterian. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 19:34:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by timothwc
Originally posted by Ricky
point taken. too bad nobody here wants to hear anything more you have to say |
A bit arrogant for someone who has 13 posts here, no? Hell... it's a bit arrogant no matter how many posts you have.
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Yes, I am your typical arrogant turd who think he's right ALL THE TIME.
But having been pushed around much of my life, lately I've taken some liberty fudging some facts to make my point stronger, as a typical person would do
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Arrogant, yes.
Fudging facts to make your point stonger is intellectual dishonesty.
Whomever the opponent is doesn't matter. Fudging facts is willful misrepresentation of salient facts. You make the argument that you can with the facts in evidence. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 19:44:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by timothwc
I thought this would be a good place to find support, and instead all I get is this tit-for-tat, tooth and nail crap
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Marf fears the day when all theists will be rounded up and stuck in cages for the mere crime of believing in god. So certain is she that this dark era of persecution will come to pass, that she has made it her personal mission to fight for the trampled rights of the religious among us at all times. In her world, most theists are sane, reasonable, respectful individuals and most atheists are discriminatory, prejudiced reactionaries who must be constantly admonished to respect the beliefs of others. Oh, sure, a few extremists might give religion a bad name, but the real danger we must vigilantly guard against is a secular society that promotes reason as superior to magical thinking. That would just make too many people feel bad about themselves. They can't help being religious, you know. And anyway, most of them arrived at their religion through reason and analytic thinking.
Basically, she lives in opposite land. The amount of effort she spends criticizing atheists who may, in casual conversation, dare to generalize religious believers is inversely proportional to the threat each group poses to a liberal democracy. She's an atheist who clearly envies the religious their faith. She even attends worship services.
I wouldn't bother myself worrying about her opinion on this issue. Many here consider her incredibly misguided and have for a very long time. She still makes valuable contributions on other topics, however.
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I don't think that this is a valid critism of marf's argument at all.
I think she was trying more to break up the representation of theists as irrational loons who have very little to add to society and are incapable of any rational thought whatsoever.
The argumentum ad populum I think is really petty and unnecessary.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 20:00:14 [Permalink]
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Real quick, 'cause we're in chat:Originally posted by marfknox
I'm not sure what to call this kind of "belief", but it doesn't fit the definition of a literal and specific claim about reality, so I can't see how it is an irrational belief or even a belief in that sense at all. |
Well, there's part of the problem between us. If someone says "I believe..." then I take them at their word and assume that they think that whatever follows "I believe" is a part of reality - that it is true - at least as far as they're concerned. I don't see why whether you think it's a "literal and specific claim about reality" or not has any bearing at all on whether something is a belief.
This perception is, perhaps, why Dude and H. think that you're willing to give vague and inspecific claims about reality a pass as not being irrational. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Why religious people are so arrogant
