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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  08:10:21  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thread is for posting comments about the SFN article “Newton’s Third Law.” Please try to keep posts on topic. Only registered users may post comments.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  08:57:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

Who is Michelle Shires?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  09:13:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Previous article by Michelle.

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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  13:10:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

Thanks, I read all of her previous writing here from your link. Her tone, in the piece with Kil, indicates that she probably is a clinical psychologist with an interest in FMS, but the recent piece you referred has a distinctly different echo. Do you have a bio or some general information on this author?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  22:32:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Dave.....

Thanks, I read all of her previous writing here from your link. Her tone, in the piece with Kil, indicates that she probably is a clinical psychologist with an interest in FMS, but the recent piece you referred has a distinctly different echo. Do you have a bio or some general information on this author?
Hey Bill,

Michelle is well into the postgraduate portion of her education in psychology. She was a research assistant while still an undergraduate. She has also worked as a teacher with “disturbed” children and teens for the past 18 years. She has worked at a psych facility for youths and her specialty is working with severely emotionally disturbed adolescence with a focus on trauma.

She is also my girlfriend…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2008 :  15:02:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Comments Part 1.

Michelle fails to explain the "opposite reaction" aspect of her recovery from a 7-day cold.

I also realized that the act of my wishing, for example, to be out of debt can only lead (by the pure fact of the laws of physics) to even more debt.
I don't understand how the laws of physics apply to the act of wishing! I don't want just a statement that they do, but an objective statement of the mechanical functioning of the brain that demonstrates obedience to Newton's Third Law, and the subsequent reaction of external objects and forces that follows from this mechanism - also what physics describe that psychokinetic effect?

The more energy put into confused wishes, the more of a mess our lives become.
I'm not sure why this is necessarily so! Perhaps merely time is wasted!

Do you really want to set that law of physics into motion against you?
I really want an explanation of how the laws of physics apply to the chemical-electrical interactions of neurons in the cerebral cortex, specifically the actions of Newton's third law, and precisely how that translates into affect upon the material Universe exterior to the mind!

And on the day of reckoning, a colleague not as good as you, got the promotion.
Or, quite possibly, you did get the promotion. If the laws of Physics were in operation here in this scenario, you would never get the promotion!

In the film that I saw it was obvious that Gene Cernan, as determined as he was to work in space, was actually flopping around and banging against the side of the ship. It looked awful.
Definitely the laws of physics in full operational glory!

“The greatest idea in the world; if it requires that you violate Newton's Laws; that great elegant idea is going to see the brutal reality of the laws of nature. It won't work.”[4]
I don't know Kamen, but I'll bet my Vespa that he was talking about the laws of physics as they apply to the force of gravity, or one of the laws of thermodynamics, not the mental phenomenon of ideation!

They harness the power of the Third Law and use it to more fully understand the universe and to create brilliant things like the Segway. These people aren't willy-nilly about the Third Law. They understand its intricacies and its behavior and they respect it. This is why they receive awards and accolades
To me, this thinking borders on the metaphysical! Newton's third law certainly applies to many aspects of investigation of the physical world. And I can see some validity in the analogy that Michelle makes to cerebration and other cognitive processes. But unless Man is a Machine as posited by Julien Offray de la Metrie in 1746, Newtons third law nor any other doctrines of Physics do not define the operation of our thought processes to the best of our knowledge today!

Michelle has written a great deal here, and so far, my comments have been perfunctory! Let's call this Part 1, ending with Catastrophize, and I'll pick up after some Response to my Call here from Michelle!




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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2008 :  20:06:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't understand how the laws of physics apply to the act of wishing!


Good! Keep thinking that, and eventually Newton's Third Law will take effect and you will!

I really want an explanation of how the laws of physics apply to the chemical-electrical interactions of neurons in the cerebral cortex, specifically the actions of Newton's third law, and precisely how that translates into affect upon the material Universe exterior to the mind!


All of that is beyond me, but intuitively, doesn't it just make sense?

Or, quite possibly, you did get the promotion.


Let's not make up fantasy worlds here. Quite clearly, you did not get the promotion. Don't you see in the article where it says that?

Newton's third law certainly applies to many aspects of investigation of the physical world.


Are you saying you're not part of the physical world?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  05:34:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to Newton's Third Law of Motion, just the action of wishing to be out of debt will worsen our debt. The action of wishing will cause an equal and opposite reaction of Not-Getting.


Perhaps this is pure metaphor, but to me, it isn't presented as such.

Newton's laws apply specifically to massive bodies. Applying it to the act of wishing just doesn't work. To me this is akin to applying psychotherapy (which I admittedly know almost nothing about) to electrical current flowing in a wire. Even so, it's obvious to me that wishes wouldn't be massive. All evidence so far tells us that they occur in the brain. Ergot, they must be tiny!

Damn you, Kil

Your teaser in chat today got me going. Even in light of other discussions we had, including geostationary bananas!

I'm almost embarrassed to say I had more responses jotted down, but I think I'll leave it at what I've posted above.



John's just this guy, you know.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  06:32:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JohnOAS

Even so, it's obvious to me that wishes wouldn't be massive.
Hehehe. Does a 1 bit weigh more or less than a 0 bit?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  07:46:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill:
Michelle has written a great deal here, and so far, my comments have been perfunctory! Let's call this Part 1, ending with Catastrophize, and I'll pick up after some Response to my Call here from Michelle!


Michelle informs me that she stands by the article as written. She suggests finishing the whole article and try “Newton's Third Law” out for yourself to see if it works. She is, of course, openly receptive to comments.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  09:02:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe this was Michelle's attempt to play at L. Ron's game. In my opinion, she needs to pass out this info at one of those New Age conventions. No doubt some there will see the logic of her system immediately, apply the rule to their lives, and report astounding results. Such an experiment might in fact be quite interesting.

I just don't think we're the type of crowd to fall for it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/03/2008 09:03:40
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  09:09:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

She suggests finishing the whole article and try “Newton's Third Law” out for yourself to see if it works.
According to Newton's Third Law, if Michelle makes such a suggestion, it means that bngbuck will be less likely to do it.
She is, of course, openly receptive to comments.
And thus she ensures that she will receive fewer comments.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  10:44:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading this, I'm left with an overwhelming cloud of confusion. It is exactly the feel I have when someone tells a joke and I don't get it. I know from much of the tone and style that I'm not supposed to take it literally, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the point is or points are.

Perhaps this last sentence gives a clue?
By following simple laws of physics we unleash in our lives the powers in the Universe that literally move mountains and govern the planets.
This sounds to me like a parody of New Age woowoos (such as those who created the movie "What the @#$* Do We Know?" who think they are using Quantum Physics to develop a superior worldview and philosophy for how to live one's life.

So now that I feel thoroughly stupid (I'm used to it; I usually don't get jokes,) can someone please tell me what I'm missing?

Other random commentary in response to the article:
So often small things happen to us that are disappointing or even hurtful. These things are painful and we would like to cry or smash someone's car window. When we express our confusion to our loved ones they say, “it will all be ok,” or “suck it up,” or “keep a stiff upper lip.” I don't even know what “keep a stiff upper lip“ means, because it's the lower lip that shivers in the wake of crushing blows. But in any case, has it ever worked? Have any of these statements, or frames of mind, actually worked to make you feel better? If you have ever said these things to another, have they ever come back to thank you later?
Actually, I have thanked my husband, my mom, and my dad on various occasions for essentially telling me to toughen up and accept something not going the way I wanted it to. Then again, I don't think they were belittling my pain; simply trying to get me to see it in perspective.

Not only is the perspective as it compares to others in greater pain, but also in perspective to the whole of my life. The last huge disappointment for me turned out to be the luckiest thing ever; I was heartbroken last summer about not getting a fulltime job as an art teacher right down the street from my house at this Quaker school. Since then I've realized how much full time teaching prevents me from working on my art and being ambitious about my art career, so now I'm applying for all these amazing residencies, including one in Japan. Also, just 2 weeks ago an awesome and well paid position was just handed to me to be the Director of my local Humanist group. Will (my husband) had a similar experience. Years ago he came within a half point of passing the foreign service exam. This was the 3rd time he took it, so it was a serious disappointment. But last year we read about hundreds of new foreign service officers being forced to go to Iraq or lose their jobs with the state department. Had he passed that test, chances are good he might have been one of those poor people. Instead he has a great job with U Penn, and has settled down in a city he loves.

Hmmmm… given these two examples I've given from Will and my life, maybe this whole be careful what you wish for stuff is right.

Something I use regularly is a mantra that I read about in Kim Stanley Robinson's novel "Red Mars," although the story originates elsewhere. It goes something like this: a king is offered something which will make him happy when he's sad, and sad when he's happy. This object turns out to be a ring with this inscribed on it: This, too, will pass. Whenever I'm really upset, this mantra pops in my head to remind me to be hopeful, and whenever I'm overjoyed, this mantra pops in my head to remind me to be grateful.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  11:10:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Has enough time passed to tell people to examine the posting date of the article?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  12:00:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So this really is just a parody against New Age wooism regarding the laws of Physics, right? No, even more subtle joke going on? That's it. I got it all, right?

Edited to add: Maybe this is a let down because I live on the East Coast where New Age Wooism isn't nearly as prevalent.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/03/2008 12:01:50
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  16:21:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humbert.....

I just don't think we're the type of crowd to fall for it.


According to Dude, we just did!

I'll hunt you down, Michekil, to the five corners of the Earth, and when I find you I'll lock you in a room with Jerome and BillScott for a week! Whom should we turn SFN over to when they cart your paralyzed bod(ies) away?
Edited by - bngbuck on 04/03/2008 16:24:01
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