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bmnb123
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 10:06:30 [Permalink]
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you here how bad the Nazis and soviets where. They existed for 100 years combined . How many Jews did the Catholic church kill thousand year rule. If want for science we would for still there.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2008 : 13:06:18 [Permalink]
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Well, my goodness. Lessee, Discovery Institute got it's collective ass kicked at Dover, Expelled turned out to be the equivelent of a rat turd in the sugar bowl at the box office and is currently getting review-raped at Amazon.com, Dembski & minions have managed to become yet more of a laughing stock, and I've been banned at Uncommon Descent. Does that pretty much sum it up?
Well, no. There's more. It seems that all is not sweetness and light amongst the right-wing blogs of which Dembski's whirlagig can be considered as one.
"There's an amusing dispute going on between the Discovery Institute and Little Green Footballs, the latter of which recently unveiled some very interesting details about links between Islamic and Christian creationists. Needless to say, the DI folks are demonstrating their usual haphazard acquaintance with the truth."
Click the links and enjoy such pearls of comedy as:
"Little Green Footballs Fumbles the Ball by Making False Claims about Discovery Institute, Islam, and Intelligent Design
The blog site Little Green Footballs has slandered Discovery Institute, whether intentionally or not, by implying that we are in league with Islamic radicals in Turkey. They base this fantasy, apparently, on a CBC radio report of a year ago that was so poorly researched that it called Discovery Senior Fellow David Berlinski "Paul Berlinski" and referred to us as the "Christian Discovery organization." Then they interview a host of people of varying views in Turkey who are critical of Darwinism and imply that they are all connected. They seemingly imply Discovery's involvement in this situation based on the fact that Berlinski was invited to speak at a conference held by the municipal government of Istanbul last year. Big deal. (Berlinski, by the way, is a secular Jew, so work with that fact for a while, boys.)"
And:
"When Disco Dudes Attack
Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:49:27 pm PST
Bruce Chapman of the Discovery Institute says I made false claims about them, but he doesn't actually dispute a single fact in my LGF article. I was going to ignore this post at their anti-evolution blog, but on second reading it struck me as a pretty good example of the kinds of misdirection the Discovery Institute commonly employs, so we'll go through it to see how many obfuscations we can spot."
I can't guess how long this little tiff might go on but I hope it has some staying power. It promises to be highly amusing. 
Found it at the Thumb.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2008 : 13:31:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Well, my goodness. Lessee, Discovery Institute got it's collective ass kicked at Dover, Expelled turned out to be the equivelent of a rat turd in the sugar bowl at the box office and is currently getting review-raped at Amazon.com, Dembski & minions have managed to become yet more of a laughing stock, and I've been banned at Uncommon Descent. Does that pretty much sum it up?
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It's not only at Amazon.com. They are getting wiped at Internet Movie Database too.
Just look at those ratings. It's a reverse bell-curve, but there's no question which side is winning. Median vote = 1
 |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 16:00:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
Well, my goodness. Lessee, Discovery Institute got it's collective ass kicked at Dover, Expelled turned out to be the equivelent of a rat turd in the sugar bowl at the box office and is currently getting review-raped at Amazon.com, Dembski & minions have managed to become yet more of a laughing stock, and I've been banned at Uncommon Descent. Does that pretty much sum it up?
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It's not only at Amazon.com. They are getting wiped at Internet Movie Database too.
Just look at those ratings. It's a reverse bell-curve, but there's no question which side is winning. Median vote = 1
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Ouch! If they can't even get the DVD nut back, Discovery Institwit's backers might decide that throwing yet more money at them is a bad idea. Dembski could have to sign up for food stamps.
Has anything they've come up with not turned to shit?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Archereon
New Member
New Zealand
32 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 20:31:45 [Permalink]
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| You know with effort this could get battlefield earth of the bottom 100 list. So while you are over at imdb you may want to see if you can help cement BFE's position as abysmal as well |
West Ham Claret and Blue Army NZ div |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2008 : 19:21:49 [Permalink]
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In the Sep/Oct 2008 Skeptical Inquirer, Matt "Frame Me" Nisbet has a piece titled, "Ben Stein's Trojan Horse: Mobilizing the State House and Local News Agenda." As anyone who's aware of Nisbet's position could guess, it's largely a doom-and-gloom piece on how effective Expelled will be. In his words, "Over the next few years, Expelled's enduring impact will be to serve as a vehicle for recruiting and mobilizing anti-evolution activists at the state and local level across the country."
Well, duh, Matt. The idea that Expelled is anything more than a moving-picture version of a Jack Chick tract is to give the movie too much credit. You're not revealing anything new or interesting, Matt, your conclusions are those reached by better-aware people months ago. Nobody is "underestimating" the impact the film will have, because only an idiot would think that a movie is going to be less of an enticement to sloppy thinking than a tract or a web page, both of which take effort to read.
Nisbet's also doing his impression of Chicken Little:Since the 2005 Dover court decision, intelligent design had been off the national news radar, yet Expelled helped restart the media conversation, at least temporarily. Yeah, and just how temporary was it? A few days or weeks, at most. CrackerGate got more coverage, unless you include Christian broadcasting as "national news."
Nisbet also does exactly what the producers of the film want everyone to do, and talk about how high in the rankings the film got with its $7.5 million box-office take. Matt thinks the film is "the sixth or seventh top grossing public affairs documentary of all time." Of course, considering the fact that the producers are claiming it is a satire, the film should really be in the same category as Moon Over Parador. In the proper genre, Political Satire, Expelled would rank a solid 21st place (Moon Over Parador is 18th).
Nisbet also fails to mention what the producers predicted the film would make, or its awful performance in Canada, or how much was spent on production and advertising, which should all be relevant to the point he's trying to make. And he considers positive coverage by Jimmy Kimmel, Wolf Blitzer, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Hannity and Colmes something to worry about.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2008 : 19:42:28 [Permalink]
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| Dave, why don't you turn the above into a letter and send it to SI? They do publish criticism, you know. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 16:54:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dave, why don't you turn the above into a letter and send it to SI? They do publish criticism, you know.
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Well, Dave, did you ever send that post as a letter to SI?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 17:47:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Well, Dave, did you ever send that post as a letter to SI? |
Nope. Completely blanked on it. And now it'd have to be rewritten to include Nisbet's poo-pooing of the exemplary performance of Religulous when compared to Expelled. Nisbet's "framing" of these issues appears more and more to be based upon fear, uncertainty and doubt than upon empiricism. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 18:22:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Nisbet's "framing" of these issues appears more and more to be based upon fear, uncertainty and doubt than upon empiricism.
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Actually, I always felt Nisbet's framing was a direct result of his theistic sympathies and hatred of "militant" atheists like PZ and Dawkins. He puts down their efforts (and plays up those of their enemies) because he's clearly rooting for them to fail. Not that I think Nisbet is a closet creationist, just one of those who Dennett would describe as someone that "believes in belief"--i.e. that religion is a good thing in moderation, even if untrue, and we should not be actively trying to dissuade people from theism.
I think you're right that also at work here may be a fear that if scientists come across as anti-religion, they risk radicalizing even the moderates. At least, I believe that was Nisbet's professional prediction, so he sort of needs to massage the evidence to match that prediction in order to avoid looking like a complete fool. Of course, I think he's accomplished that nicely already.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 18:56:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I think you're right that also at work here may be a fear that if scientists come across as anti-religion, they risk radicalizing even the moderates. At least, I believe that was Nisbet's professional prediction, so he sort of needs to massage the evidence to match that prediction in order to avoid looking like a complete fool. Of course, I think he's accomplished that nicely already. |
The way it has looked to me is that Nisbet points to Expelled and screams "ohnoes!1!!1! Look at what these people are doing to science!!" And then he points to PZ Myers and screams "ohnoes!!! Look at what these people are doing to science!!!111!!" Crises are everywhere, and I've never seen him publish a positive message. It always seems to be "these people over here are destroying science, and those people over there are helping them by being meanies and/or ugly."
I have to admit I've done some of the same, myself, but I try to remember to not just spew negativity, but to include an agenda of some sort that goes beyond "get those people I don't agree with to shut the hell up."
Has Nisbet ever really done that?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 19:41:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Has Nisbet ever really done that? |
Well, he's selling himself and his framing expertise as the solution to these problems, so it's no wonder that he fans the flames of controversy on both sides. But no, I've never seen him (or Chris Mooney, his ass-kisser in crime) offer a solid plan other than "stay on the script we give you." I've read Mooney's blog more than Nisbet's, but had to abandon that quickly due to severe frustration. Neither of them ever make any substantial attempt to answer criticism and both say they don't want atheists to shut up, but it's clear that they do.
I think Larry Moran's conclusion is primary correct: | As it turns out, this isn't about about framing at all. It's about religion. It's about conforming to the Nisbet & Mooney view of how we should combat superstition. |
Chris Mooney responded with: | Yeah, our article was called "Framing Science," not "Framing Religion." We're trying to advance and defend the goals of the scientific community, not dismantle belief systems that have endured for thousands of years. |
But he fails to address (big surprise) Larry's main criticism that Mooney and Nisbet lack any plan of action other than the same old appeasement that's been going on for decades:| Dawkins thinks that religion is the enemy (so do I). What you're suggesting isn't framing, it's surrender. You want Dawkins to give up his fight entirely and form an alliance with the very people he is opposing...After decades of appeasement in America we have a situation where it's the only Western industrialized country in the world objecting to the teaching of evolution. What do Nisbet & Mooney propose to do about it? More of the same, that's what. |
Their strategy sort of reminds me of the Underpants Gnomes strategy to make money on South Park.
Step 1: Dumb down science and make it appear as non-threatening as possible.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2008 20:17:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 21:37:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, he's selling himself and his framing expertise as the solution to these problems... |
Well, hell, I can tell the world that I'm great at selling used cars, but if anyone were to actually ask me to sell one, I'd fall flat on my face.| ...so it's no wonder that he fans the flames of controversy on both sides. |
I'm getting the feeling that Nisbet is the Billy Mays of science popularization, except that I'm sure some of Mays' products actually work.| But no, I've never seen him (or Chris Mooney, his ass-kisser in crime) offer a solid plan other than "stay on the script we give you." |
Well, there's the thing: I've never seen anything from those guys that even vaguely resembles a script. It's always been case studies (if you can call 'em that) of what not to do. So perhaps instead of Billy Mays, they're more like the FTC or the judiciary, mandating warning labels only after someone has tried to dry his hair in the bathtub or has ordered coffee from McDonalds.
By the way, Larry Moran I like. I'd seen that stuff before, but Larry's not omniscient. Perhaps someone else has seen "the script." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 22:10:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, there's the thing: I've never seen anything from those guys that even vaguely resembles a script. It's always been case studies (if you can call 'em that) of what not to do. |
Yes, yes, you are correct. I was giving them far too much credit. The "script" I was referring to can indeed only be arrived at by inference, but I think the basic message is that scientists need to act more like politicians. I know scientists are supposed to come across as someone Joe the Plumber would like to have a beer with. That much I think has been established as being pretty important for some reason. Although admittedly there have been no suggestions on how to do that other than to stroke the egos of ignoramuses.
Honestly, I think the real reason we haven't heard Mooney or Nisbet state their plan in no uncertain terms is because they are suggesting scientists act disingenuously. They'd like to encourage the use of "weasel words" and employ a "big tent strategy" that blunts controversial conclusions and avoids taking sides, at least on issues they deem as unimportant. Understanding evolution (unimportant) is thrown under the bus in favor of issues deemed more pressing, like Global Warming. It's a basic "pick your battles" strategy. Now, they know they can't openly advocate such a thing to scientists for obvious reasons, even if they think it'll work, so they're forced to leave it with a wink and a nudge--and of course by roundly criticizing any examples which fail to be sufficiently "politically expedient." Call their strategy "focused appeasement," with the implied assumption that the vast majority of people are incapable of rationality and require emotional-based, feel-good cajoling even on issues of mortal importance.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2008 22:34:46 |
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed! ...Part 2
