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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 04:14:27 [Permalink]
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that Russia has quite a large Muslim population as well.
In my own experience, unbelievers seem to be a lot more tolerent than their religious counterparts. The reason is, I think, that the above-mentioned, texts are written specifically to encourage the literal extermination of any who don't follow them. Here's an example of brain-washed idiocy and here, and here. But these are mere individual lunatics; organized religions commit evil on a scale that dwarfs even their sanguine imaginations. And call it 'following the banner of (insert deity(s) of choice).'
I think that it's all a matter of power aquisition, and always has been. Historically, the various churchs held sway over the populations within their realms, and it was always to the supression of those populations -- tithe, do penance, pray & so forth, or suffer at our hands. Kinda funny, when you think about it; it must drive assholes like Land, Perkins, Dobson the child-beater, Parsley & Hagee (this last pair snuggling up to McCain like the parasites that they are) to the fainting fantods with yearning when they look at the ridgid control that the Islamic mullahs (also parasitic) hold over too many mid-eastern populations.
But on a brighter note, Falwell is dead, although I sort of wish he wasn't. Now we don't have him to kick around anymore, and let's face it: his clown show was often fun and when teamed with Pat Robertson, even hilarius.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/12/2008 05:53:28 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 05:04:23 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Oh, good grief. As if the Russian Orthodox Church is the only religion in Russia. Besides, the Russian Embassy claims that "Religion plays a prominent role in the public and spiritual life of today's Russia." They also say that theists are some 40% of the population, including two million Protestants. |
Oh good grief, we are getting off on a tangent here. Let us review how we got to this point. Leo implied that the only thing holding the USA back from becoming a "better place" was the majority of her citizens and their belief in God and an after life(ie Christian country USA). I was curious to see if he had any examples or evidence of where a country that had a majority which did not believe in God, or an after life, and that was a "better place" then USA existed in which Leo responded that sadly he did not but he then attempted to head me off at the pass and insist that the former USSR is a religious people. I was surprised by his answer as all I was trying to figure out was if he had any examples or evidence for his hypothesis or if it was just some idea that he had floating around up in his head. Honestly, I didn't have any country in mind but was rather curious to see what he was going to point to. So if you want to insist that the former USSR is a religious people then have at it. It is rather irrelevant to the original discussion as it is a religious people as you insist and is not a "better place" then the USA.
| You then chime in with your pennies analogy as if any country has a 0% percent of non-religious people or a 0% of religious people. |
As if? No. It's a dream I have, not yet a reality. Except for the sociopaths whose pathology is reined in by the threat of Hell, I think that people losing their faith will increase the amount of good things done on this planet for people, instead of for some invisible untouchable being. |
Then I will ask you. Do you have any examples in history of atheistic societies that thrived and prospered to the point where most would not debate that they are/were a "better place" then the USA? Or is this just a mythical place that you dream of?
| I have yet to see a skinny person here panhandling. It's anecdotal but true. |
I want to know what city it is so I can live like a king on the streets, thanks. |
It is irrelevant which city I live in. These people can be found in any major US metropolitan area.
| Not vanish, but have a major dwindle. |
Thus showing that you think people, without religion, will be largely without compassion. |
Your putting words in my mouth. Leo thought some in Europe came closest to a godless society and he speculated that their poor were better off then our poor. I merely pointed out that here in the US the vast majority of rescue missions and soup kitchens (which cater to the poor) are ran by religious organizations. That was all I said. You can come to your own conclusion on that but don't put words in my mouth that I never uttered.
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/12/2008 05:25:07 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 05:51:25 [Permalink]
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| Then I will ask you. Do you have any examples in history of atheistic societies that thrived and prospered to the point where most would not debate that they are/were a "better place" then the USA? Or is this just a mythical place that you dream of? |
Ok Bill, let's trim a little fat off this hog. You know perfectly well that there has never been a purely atheistic society. Ever. Nor will there ever be such. Atheists have always been in a tiny minority and, while that minority is said to be growing slightly, they will never be even close to dominant anywhere in the world.
Atheism, Bill, is not a threat to either you or your beliefs, although I'm sure we sound like it sometimes. But really, we have neither authority nor even very much influence over the values of society. Nor will we ever have.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/12/2008 06:01:51 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 06:49:46 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| Ok Bill, let's trim a little fat off this hog. You know perfectly well that there has never been a purely atheistic society. Ever. |
Just as there is no purely religious society either. And I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place."
Nor will there ever be such. Atheists have always been in a tiny minority and, while that minority is said to be growing slightly, they will never be even close to dominant anywhere in the world.
Atheism, Bill, is not a threat to either you or your beliefs, although I'm sure we sound like it sometimes. But really, we have neither authority nor even very much influence over the values of society. Nor will we ever have. |
So you would then agree that Leo's implication of the USA being, or becoming, a "better place" if atheists were in the majority is based on pure speculation and his personal beliefs? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/12/2008 06:55:47 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 06:58:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
He stated already that there is no such example. However, why does he need one? If I asserted that the world would be a better place if people would stop murdering each other, I could obviously not back it up with an actual example of a murder-free society. Yet, it should be obvious that a society that has no murders is better than one that does have murders. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:06:57 [Permalink]
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| Define "better place" because one mans better place is anothers nightmare. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:24:52 [Permalink]
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OK, so Bill want to know of some place better off than the religious USA. How about 11? Check out the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) which shows that there are 11 countries which are arguably "better" than the United States in terms of "life expectancy, literacy, education, and GDP per capita." Many are highly secular nations in Europe, just as I had speculated. Only two, as far as I know, are fairly religious (Ireland at #5 and Australia at #3). Some religious countries I can think of, like Mexico, don't do so well.
I'm not sure where all this gets us. No country has ever had a majority of "rational thinkers", or been run by such. Also, the ranking of the US may have less to do with Religion than some other factor. Correlation does not equal causation.
I just find it hard to believe that someone is better off believing in a fantasy than in reality. And God is, based on all the evidence I have ever seen, most assuridly a fantasy. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:31:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
He stated already that there is no such example. However, why does he need one? If I asserted that the world would be a better place if people would stop murdering each other, I could obviously not back it up with an actual example of a murder-free society. Yet, it should be obvious that a society that has no murders is better than one that does have murders.
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But Leo is applying that a godless society (one where the majority does not believe in God) would be a society with less murder ("better place") then a religious society where the majority does believe in God. I am simply asking him if he has any examples or evidence to offer up, otherwise this is nothing but his own speculation and personal beliefs. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 07:48:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
He stated already that there is no such example. However, why does he need one? If I asserted that the world would be a better place if people would stop murdering each other, I could obviously not back it up with an actual example of a murder-free society. Yet, it should be obvious that a society that has no murders is better than one that does have murders.
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But Leo is applying that a godless society (one where the majority does not believe in God) would be a society with less murder ("better place") then a religious society where the majority does believe in God. I am simply asking him if he has any examples or evidence to offer up, otherwise this is nothing but his own speculation and personal beliefs.
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It probably would be, as the murders committed for religious reasons would decline with the religious population. Of course, humans, basically being human and having all of the greed, envy, insanity & so forth that goes with the territory, murders would never become non-existent.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:11:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
He stated already that there is no such example. However, why does he need one? If I asserted that the world would be a better place if people would stop murdering each other, I could obviously not back it up with an actual example of a murder-free society. Yet, it should be obvious that a society that has no murders is better than one that does have murders. |
But Leo is applying that a godless society (one where the majority does not believe in God) would be a society with less murder ("better place") then a religious society where the majority does believe in God. I am simply asking him if he has any examples or evidence to offer up, otherwise this is nothing but his own speculation and personal beliefs. |
You're missing the point. He's arguing that a godless society would be better than a theistic one. You wanted him to name an example of one, implying that there were no such examples. But, just like there are no examples of a murder-free society, it doesn't mean that we can't logically speculate that a murder-free society is better than one with murder. So your best line of questioning is to ask why he thinks that a godless society would be a better place. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:15:41 [Permalink]
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Yes, the "Man of Honor." Read about him.
One would hope that he got evolved out with the religious before his birth. Or suffers an accident that earns him a Darwin Award at a pre-breeding, age.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:19:53 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by leoofno |
| OK, so Bill want to know of some place better off than the religious USA. How about 11? Check out the Human Development Index (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index>) which shows that there are 11 countries which are arguably "better" than the United States in terms of "life expectancy, literacy, education, and GDP per capita." Many are highly secular nations in Europe, just as I had speculated. Only two, as far as I know, are fairly religious (Ireland at #5 and Australia at #3). Some religious countries I can think of, like Mexico, don't do so well. |
Wait a minute. Your going to label the former USSR a religious people and then label Europe as "highly secular"?
#1 Iceland 82.1% members of the National Church of Iceland. 2.6% not members of any religious group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Religion
#2 Nearly 83% of Norwegians are members of the state Church of Norway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Religion
#3 Australia you acknowledge as religious
#4 Canada I could not find any religion status.
#5 Ireland you acknowledge as religious
#6 Sweden Today about 75% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden (Lutheran),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion
#7 Switzerland Christianity is the predominant religion of Switzerland, divided between the Catholic Church (41.8% of the population) and various Protestant denominations (40%). Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Albanians mostly from Kosovo and Eastern Orthodoxy (1.8%) as sizeable minority religions. The 2005 Eurobarometer poll found 48% to be theist , 39% expressing belief in "a spirit or life force", 9% atheist and 4% agnostic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Religion
| I'm not sure where all this gets us. No country has ever had a majority of "rational thinkers", or been run by such. Also, the ranking of the US may have less to do with Religion than some other factor. Correlation does not equal causation. |
I can say the same thing then about Mexico and why she ain't doing so good.
| I just find it hard to believe that someone is better off believing in a fantasy than in reality. And God is, based on all the evidence I have ever seen, most assuridly a fantasy. |
Yet you hold to your notion that non-religious countries are "better places" then religious countries without any evidence.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:25:03 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
Yet you hold to your notion that non-religious countries are "better places" then religious countries without any evidence. |
Okay then, why not give it a try? Lets make the US religion free and see what happens?
"You can say that I'm a dreamer..." |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:40:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
It probably would be, as the murders committed for religious reasons would decline with the religious population. Of course, humans, basically being human and having all of the greed, envy, insanity & so forth that goes with the territory, murders would never become non-existent.
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As far as the USA, which is the focal point of the discussion, I know of very few cases where people kill over religion. Not to say that it never happens, it just don't happen a lot compared with the rest of the reasons people murder here in the states It is speculation to assume that the murder rate will go down as religious folks decline as they will be replaced by non-religious folks and here in the states, which is the subject of our conversation, most murders are for a non-religious matters. So I still don't see any evidence that religious folks are holding this country back from becoming a "better place."
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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God is Great?
