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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2008 :  07:52:25  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
..... to make OK the stupidist state extant.
Get ready, Oklahoma Sally Kern is about to screw you over
Category: Creationism
Posted on: May 13, 2008 7:26 AM, by PZ Myers

Remember Sally Kern, the Oklahoma legislator who loves God and hates homosexuals? She had earlier sponsored something called the Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act, a ghastly piece of legislation that would require teachers to pass any old crap a student turned in, as long as the student said it was his religious belief it prioritized belief over evidence. That bill died in a senate committee, fortunately.

But now it has been resurrected! The language from the earlier bill has been inserted into Oklahoma House Bill 2633.

A controversial provision in House Bill 2633 states that "students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions."

That is simply insane. It's a declaration that religion trumps everything, and gives students an escape hatch from learning biology class would become an exercise in futility, in which lazy, stupid, or religiously indoctrinated students would simply parrot the book of genesis at their instructors, and expect to be given a good grade.

Sally Kern knows this.

"We are a very conservative state a very religious state," Kern said.

And working hard to become a very stupid state, too.

Oklahomans, be afraid.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
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Posted - 05/13/2008 :  08:13:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I'm proud to be an Oaky from Muskogee
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse
And white lightening is still the biggest thrill of all

Merl Haggard (who was joking when he wrote this...)

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  10:59:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

..... to make OK the stupidist state extant.
Get ready, Oklahoma Sally Kern is about to screw you over
Category: Creationism
Posted on: May 13, 2008 7:26 AM, by PZ Myers

Remember Sally Kern, the Oklahoma legislator who loves God and hates homosexuals? She had earlier sponsored something called the Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act, a ghastly piece of legislation that would require teachers to pass any old crap a student turned in, as long as the student said it was his religious belief it prioritized belief over evidence. That bill died in a senate committee, fortunately.

But now it has been resurrected! The language from the earlier bill has been inserted into Oklahoma House Bill 2633.

A controversial provision in House Bill 2633 states that "students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions."

That is simply insane. It's a declaration that religion trumps everything, and gives students an escape hatch from learning biology class would become an exercise in futility, in which lazy, stupid, or religiously indoctrinated students would simply parrot the book of genesis at their instructors, and expect to be given a good grade.

Sally Kern knows this.

"We are a very conservative state a very religious state," Kern said.

And working hard to become a very stupid state, too.

Oklahomans, be afraid.



It is insane. I am trying to teach my children to be discerning in what they learn. I will not make a political or religious statement with my child. They are in school to learn and not be caught up in this stuff. My children are taught to learn and repeat the answers that they are taught. These answers are correct and in line with todays science. Not a bad thing to learn. However, they need to be discerning and anything that we want to teach contrary to what is taught in school we will deal with at home. In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do.

It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught. it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  11:38:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by filthy

..... to make OK the stupidist state extant.
Get ready, Oklahoma Sally Kern is about to screw you over
Category: Creationism
Posted on: May 13, 2008 7:26 AM, by PZ Myers

Remember Sally Kern, the Oklahoma legislator who loves God and hates homosexuals? She had earlier sponsored something called the Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act, a ghastly piece of legislation that would require teachers to pass any old crap a student turned in, as long as the student said it was his religious belief it prioritized belief over evidence. That bill died in a senate committee, fortunately.

But now it has been resurrected! The language from the earlier bill has been inserted into Oklahoma House Bill 2633.

A controversial provision in House Bill 2633 states that "students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions."

That is simply insane. It's a declaration that religion trumps everything, and gives students an escape hatch from learning biology class would become an exercise in futility, in which lazy, stupid, or religiously indoctrinated students would simply parrot the book of genesis at their instructors, and expect to be given a good grade.

Sally Kern knows this.

"We are a very conservative state a very religious state," Kern said.

And working hard to become a very stupid state, too.

Oklahomans, be afraid.



It is insane. I am trying to teach my children to be discerning in what they learn. I will not make a political or religious statement with my child. They are in school to learn and not be caught up in this stuff. My children are taught to learn and repeat the answers that they are taught. These answers are correct and in line with todays science. Not a bad thing to learn. However, they need to be discerning and anything that we want to teach contrary to what is taught in school we will deal with at home. In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do.

It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught. it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.
Hear-hear! Well said, Robb!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  12:05:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb.....

In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do. It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught.
This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it! However.....
it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.
Children should be taught fact by professional teachers and nothing else! When their cognitive skills mature sufficiently for sensible discrimination between fact and fancy, reason will generally rule! "Christian" home-schooling is a mockery of true education as a good deal of superstition is taught as fact!
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  18:21:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Robb.....
Children should be taught fact by professional teachers and nothing else! When their cognitive skills mature sufficiently for sensible discrimination between fact and fancy, reason will generally rule! "Christian" home-schooling is a mockery of true education as a good deal of superstition is taught as fact!
Even if you are correct, every parent has the right to teach their children in what environment they think best.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  19:05:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Robb.....

In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do. It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught.
This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it! However
Don't get me wrong. Christians that want religion taught in school will get what they want and more. It is prefferrable to me that no religious thought be taught in school than all religious thought. I will teach my own childfren about faith.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  19:13:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Even if you are correct, every parent has the right to teach their children in what environment they think best.
Except they don't. California just recently mandated some sort of standards for homeschooling, and several years ago Virginia passed a law saying that a parent who wishes to homeschool their child must have at least a Bachelor's degree in something.

Society as a whole suffers when children are taught poorly or not at all. The children suffer as well, of course. I would consider society's obligation to protect these future citizens from mush-headed teachers (even their own parents) to be just as large as society's obligation to protect them from being sexually abused. Unfortunately, child protective laws don't extend that far, yet.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  03:25:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bngbuck
This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it! However.....
You say this "However" as if you had just said something agreeable instead of condescending. Can we not be critical of religious beliefs without also being personally insulting to believing individuals? Given his history on SFN of thoughtful and diplomatic comments, Robb deserves more respect than this.

Children should be taught fact by professional teachers and nothing else! When their cognitive skills mature sufficiently for sensible discrimination between fact and fancy, reason will generally rule! "Christian" home-schooling is a mockery of true education as a good deal of superstition is taught as fact!
I disagree. Home-schooling is a mixed bag, but a good number of home-schooled children received excellent educations from parents without professional degrees in teaching.

Robb wrote:
Even if you are correct, every parent has the right to teach their children in what environment they think best.
I only agree with this to a reasonable extent. There was this crazy extremist religious couple with three kids who drove around the country evangelizing and holding up signs on campuses. They came to OSU when I was a student there. The three children only paroted their parents' rhetoric, including the 9 year old boy calling college students "whores" and "whore-mongers" and screaming with vitriol that they were all going to hell if they didn't repent soon. One child was a teenage girl, and she was the shyest. He parents forced her to stand on a college campus holding a huge, outrageously sign while some less mature and compassionate college students mocked and harassed her. That sort of environment is child abuse.

The Humanist magazine recently tackled this issue in response to what happened in California (mentioned by Dave above.) http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/Jamieson.html The last paragraph pretty well sums up my thoughts on this subject:
Just because parents don't have some certain college courses doesn't mean they can't teach their children. But similarly, just because God came to them and told them to avoid the sins of the secular world doesn't mean that children can be kept in a cave.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 05/16/2008 03:26:13
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  05:00:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Robb

Even if you are correct, every parent has the right to teach their children in what environment they think best.
Except they don't. California just recently mandated some sort of standards for homeschooling, and several years ago Virginia passed a law saying that a parent who wishes to homeschool their child must have at least a Bachelor's degree in something.

Society as a whole suffers when children are taught poorly or not at all. The children suffer as well, of course. I would consider society's obligation to protect these future citizens from mush-headed teachers (even their own parents) to be just as large as society's obligation to protect them from being sexually abused. Unfortunately, child protective laws don't extend that far, yet.
This is a scarey thought. Where does it stop. I am sure soon they will mandate that teaching religious beliefs are child abuse.

Do people really need a bachelors degree to teach Kindergarden? I am not against standards for homeschooling. My state has a periodic test for homeschoolers just like the public and private school children to earn a diploma.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  05:51:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb said:
This is a scarey thought. Where does it stop. I am sure soon they will mandate that teaching religious beliefs are child abuse.

Thats a fairly slippery slope Robb.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  06:10:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In some states I'm sure they will mandate that not teaching religious beliefs is child abuse.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  06:38:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

This is a scarey thought. Where does it stop. I am sure soon they will mandate that teaching religious beliefs are child abuse.
Oh, give us a break, Robb.

Where does the prohibition against sexual abuse stop? I am sure that soon the puritanical right will mandate that kissing my kid goodnight is the same as pedophilia.

See how piss-poor an argument that is?

It has been the case for decades that the state has an obligation to protect those who cannot protect themselves, up to and including the separation of kids from abusive parents. I am simply suggesting that teaching your child demonstrable nonsense - in effect, "giving your kids the stupid" - is also abuse. How one decides whether some particular bit of knowledge is nonsense or not is a separate question.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  09:46:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Robb

This is a scarey thought. Where does it stop. I am sure soon they will mandate that teaching religious beliefs are child abuse.
Oh, give us a break, Robb.

Where does the prohibition against sexual abuse stop? I am sure that soon the puritanical right will mandate that kissing my kid goodnight is the same as pedophilia.
I am afraid of the same thing from the child protective services, especially in Texas after the Eldorado fiasco.

See how piss-poor an argument that is?

It has been the case for decades that the state has an obligation to protect those who cannot protect themselves, up to and including the separation of kids from abusive parents. I am simply suggesting that teaching your child demonstrable nonsense - in effect, "giving your kids the stupid" - is also abuse. How one decides whether some particular bit of knowledge is nonsense or not is a separate question.
If you educate your kids to a states standard at home, I do not see where it can be considered child abuse?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  09:48:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

In some states I'm sure they will mandate that not teaching religious beliefs is child abuse.
So why should the government be involved in it? Some want to teach religious beliefs and some do not. We should just let each family decide the issue for themselves.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  09:51:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is insane. I am trying to teach my children to be discerning in what they learn. I will not make a political or religious statement with my child. They are in school to learn and not be caught up in this stuff. My children are taught to learn and repeat the answers that they are taught. These answers are correct and in line with todays science. Not a bad thing to learn. However, they need to be discerning and anything that we want to teach contrary to what is taught in school we will deal with at home. In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do.

It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught. it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.



I disagree with your last statement actually.

You seem to be arguing that it is normal for a Christian family not to want to risk their child to stop believing in God.
While I can understand being uncomfortable with that situation I can not condone people restricting their child's access to new ideas and knowledge to protect their belief.
The same way, I would not condone an atheist forbidding his child from going to church for fear of getting 'contaminated'...

Give the child all the information he can handle and let him choose for himself; nuff says!

Edited to fix code -- Cune

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/16/2008 10:06:22
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