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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  13:11:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

I am afraid of the same thing from the child protective services, especially in Texas after the Eldorado fiasco.
It's still a bad argument.
If you educate your kids to a states standard at home, I do not see where it can be considered child abuse?
"If" being the key word. I don't know of any state in which the same standards used in the public schools are mandated for home-schoolers. So far as I know, so long as you've got a four-year degree in Virginia, you're free to teach your kids that 2+2=7.3 and that the Sun is only 2,000 feet above the Earth.

You're free, of course, to try to teach them such nonsense whether you homeschool or not, but with luck a non-shuttered child will have those bits of "data" corrected, either by public schooling or by friends and family. The worry about homeschooling is that it may be the only education a child is getting.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  15:54:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

It is insane. I am trying to teach my children to be discerning in what they learn. I will not make a political or religious statement with my child. They are in school to learn and not be caught up in this stuff. My children are taught to learn and repeat the answers that they are taught. These answers are correct and in line with todays science. Not a bad thing to learn. However, they need to be discerning and anything that we want to teach contrary to what is taught in school we will deal with at home. In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do.

It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught. it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.



I disagree with your last statement actually.

You seem to be arguing that it is normal for a Christian family not to want to risk their child to stop believing in God.
While I can understand being uncomfortable with that situation I can not condone people restricting their child's access to new ideas and knowledge to protect their belief.
The same way, I would not condone an atheist forbidding his child from going to church for fear of getting 'contaminated'...

Give the child all the information he can handle and let him choose for himself; nuff says!

Edited to fix code -- Cune
But do you agree that these parents have the right to do just that?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  15:55:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Robb

I am afraid of the same thing from the child protective services, especially in Texas after the Eldorado fiasco.
It's still a bad argument.
If you educate your kids to a states standard at home, I do not see where it can be considered child abuse?
"If" being the key word. I don't know of any state in which the same standards used in the public schools are mandated for home-schoolers. So far as I know, so long as you've got a four-year degree in Virginia, you're free to teach your kids that 2+2=7.3 and that the Sun is only 2,000 feet above the Earth.

You're free, of course, to try to teach them such nonsense whether you homeschool or not, but with luck a non-shuttered child will have those bits of "data" corrected, either by public schooling or by friends and family. The worry about homeschooling is that it may be the only education a child is getting.
But should not that be up to the parents?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  17:15:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

But should not that be up to the parents?
Shouldn't what constitutes "sexual abuse" be up to the parents?

Only if you think that society has no stake in the upbringing of its children.

If people really wish to be isolationists, then they really should be. Not only homeschool, but don't use any public utilities or roads, etc.. Build a big fence. That way, the rest of us don't have to deal with them or their dumbified kids.

The reality, of course, is that everyone wants to be a part of a society only so long as they get to set their own rules. These people don't want any criticism of their religion, those people don't want to pay taxes, these other people don't get why we have laws against public urination, etc.. If a person intends to be a part of a society that he/she would like to change, the polite and proper way to accomplish such goals is to fully join, follow the rules and advocate for changes from within. It's rude and stupid to say, "I'll join in, except I won't follow this-or-that rule." The only more-rude way to effect changes to a society is to overthrow it by force.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  17:53:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by Simon

It is insane. I am trying to teach my children to be discerning in what they learn. I will not make a political or religious statement with my child. They are in school to learn and not be caught up in this stuff. My children are taught to learn and repeat the answers that they are taught. These answers are correct and in line with todays science. Not a bad thing to learn. However, they need to be discerning and anything that we want to teach contrary to what is taught in school we will deal with at home. In the end all children brought up in a religious home must decide for themselves one day what is right and not believe something only because their parents do.

It is clear to me that no religions material should be taught in school and no christian should want it to be taught. it seems to me that these people are afraid that their child will decide God does not exist because of their schooling. If so, they should take them out and homeschool or private school them.



I disagree with your last statement actually.

You seem to be arguing that it is normal for a Christian family not to want to risk their child to stop believing in God.
While I can understand being uncomfortable with that situation I can not condone people restricting their child's access to new ideas and knowledge to protect their belief.
The same way, I would not condone an atheist forbidding his child from going to church for fear of getting 'contaminated'...

Give the child all the information he can handle and let him choose for himself; nuff says!

Edited to fix code -- Cune
But do you agree that these parents have the right to do just that?




What? Censor some material only on the ground that they could lead to the kid challenging their beliefs?

The right, sure they have it.
Should they keep it? Not so sure...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  20:42:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb.....

You say
Even if you are correct, every parent has the right to teach their children in what environment they think best.
Robb, I don't think anybody here is talking about "rights", at least in the legal sense. That is determined by the state you happen to live in and is not particularly relevant to this discussion.

Whether it is sensible or rational to home school your children depends upon your ability to teach, and teach well, a large variety of subjects. Few lay persons are qualified by education or temperament to do this. Consequently, most home-schooled children end up with a poor foundation in basic subjects, have difficulty in formal schools if they go on to them, are poorly prepared for higher education, and generally suffer for the rest of their lives for the lousy basic academic education they received as children!

As to teaching "Christianity" to little children, do you feel that you could teach this superstition in a manner that would allow children to examine other points of view, specifically alternative religious "beliefs"; and even to be capable of substituting reason for belief, at a later period in their life? Why should they not have this option?

If the twig is bent severely, the tree will surely incline in a similar manner. Is your faith, probably instilled in you during your early formative years, so intense that you are absolutely certain that Christ is the only way to God? And is there not the slightest shadow of a doubt in your deeply indoctrinated brain, (I assume you were brought up as a Christian, correct me if I'm wrong) that God is reality, and could not be a chimera of wishful thinking?

What argument can you give for not letting a child's mind mature to an age of reason and significant education before compelling a belief system that is controversial, to say the least?
Don't get me wrong. Christians that want religion taught in school will get what they want and more. It is prefferrable to me that no religious thought be taught in school than all religious thought. I will teach my own childfren about faith.
What do you mean by "more"? Anything other than "Christian" religious dogma?

What exactly, Robb, will you teach your children about "faith"? Can you define "Faith", for starters?
Edited by - bngbuck on 05/16/2008 22:00:58
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  21:40:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marf.....

You say this "However" as if you had just said something agreeable instead of condescending. Can we not be critical of religious beliefs without also being personally insulting to believing individuals?
No.
Given his history on SFN of thoughtful and diplomatic comments, Robb deserves more respect than this.
Robb obviously deserves some respect on some of his statements and thoughts, but not on a committment to a preposterous superstition that arguably has caused more harm to the human race than it has done good. I have no respect for that facet of his intellect, as it is non-rational.

And your blubbery defense of this nonsense is not becoming to a person that shows signs of a maturing intellect and some promise of possibly sensible future cognitive activity! Leave your teens behind when you enter your thirties, Marf!

Your Humanism is starting to sound like a weird woo-woo witlessness called Unity that my wife occasionally subscribes to! Everybody deserves respect, even the idiots! Respect loses all meaning if it is accorded to dolts!
You say this "However" as if you had just said something agreeable instead of condescending.
Condescension, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. In this case, your jaundiced eye! I have no truck with condescension or insult, other than as entertaining pastimes. My intent with Robb was to criticize, one of the stated goals of these forums.

What is condescending about "This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it!"? Robb is committed to a superstitious belief system, and I do commend him for supporting a position that such bullshit should not be taught in the schools! Other than that, he is as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey!
Edited by - bngbuck on 05/16/2008 21:46:20
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  14:00:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Whether it is sensible or rational to home school your children depends upon your ability to teach, and teach well, a large variety of subjects. Few lay persons are qualified by education or temperament to do this. Consequently, most home-schooled children end up with a poor foundation in basic subjects, have difficulty in formal schools if they go on to them, are poorly prepared for higher education, and generally suffer for the rest of their lives for the lousy basic academic education they received as children!
Where do you get this opinion? And even if it is true, why do you think anybody as a right to say they cannot make this descision for their children?

As to teaching "Christianity" to little children, do you feel that you could teach this superstition in a manner that would allow children to examine other points of view, specifically alternative religious "beliefs"; and even to be capable of substituting reason for belief, at a later period in their life? Why should they not have this option?
They always do. You seem to think that a parent can force a grown child to keep one religion over another. If you are talking about minors, would you let them think for themselves when it came to nutrition?

If the twig is bent severely, the tree will surely incline in a similar manner. Is your faith, probably instilled in you during your early formative years,
I became a Christian when I was 32.

so intense that you are absolutely certain that Christ is the only way to God? And is there not the slightest shadow of a doubt in your deeply indoctrinated brain, (I assume you were brought up as a Christian, correct me if I'm wrong) that God is reality, and could not be a chimera of wishful thinking?
Yes I have doubts at times. But no, it is not wishful thinking. I would rather people cease to exist when they die than go to hell.

What argument can you give for not letting a child's mind mature to an age of reason and significant education before compelling a belief system that is controversial, to say the least?
My argument is that it is up to the parents when and how to teach religeous belief. Why should you get to tell me that I cannot teach my children about God until adulthood?

[quote]What do you mean by "more"? Anything other than "Christian" religious dogma?
Yes. If some christians get their way, and get mandatory prayer or religious teaching in school, then they will teach christianity, isam, budhism etc as well.

[quote]What exactly, Robb, will you teach your children about "faith"? Can you define "Faith", for starters?
I don't have to. Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

It is a gift from God and not of our own doing (Eph 2:8). There are numerous passages that talk about faith. These need to be taken all together and studied. The question is how can we be "sure" and "certain" of things unseen. That is a totally different discussion and study.


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  14:05:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

If people really wish to be isolationists, then they really should be. Not only homeschool, but don't use any public utilities or roads, etc.. Build a big fence. That way, the rest of us don't have to deal with them or their dumbified kids.
When this happens the goverment eventually raids the place.

The reality, of course, is that everyone wants to be a part of a society only so long as they get to set their own rules. These people don't want any criticism of their religion, those people don't want to pay taxes, these other people don't get why we have laws against public urination, etc.. If a person intends to be a part of a society that he/she would like to change, the polite and proper way to accomplish such goals is to fully join, follow the rules and advocate for changes from within. It's rude and stupid to say, "I'll join in, except I won't follow this-or-that rule." The only more-rude way to effect changes to a society is to overthrow it by force.
So you are saying follow all the rules or none? Not a very realistic view. What you are saying is that we want you in our society as long as you do not question any of our rules. This also would be ok if society was just.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  14:09:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck
What is condescending about "This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it!"? Robb is committed to a superstitious belief system, and I do commend him for supporting a position that such bullshit should not be taught in the schools! Other than that, he is as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey!
Why must you have discussions in this manner? It's ok to disagree but I do not understand alot of the venum on this board from you and others. Why must you tear down people? I am really looking for an answer. Are your arguments really more important than people? Why do you think it is appropriate to talk like this as an adult?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
Edited by - Robb on 05/18/2008 14:17:55
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  14:50:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

When this happens the goverment eventually raids the place.
No, those people weren't isolating themselves enough. Obviously if the government has enough evidence to secure a warrant to enter the premises, then the people there haven't been cutting themselves out of the surrounding society nearly enough.
So you are saying follow all the rules or none? Not a very realistic view.
That's why I didn't say it.
What you are saying is that we want you in our society as long as you do not question any of our rules. This also would be ok if society was just.
That's not what I am saying. I said that if you want to change a society, you can either do it from within the rules, or by being rude about it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  20:12:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb.....

I have read a number of references to studies that allegedly demonstrate that home schooling produces better educated kids than either public or private formal education. In checking many of these anecdotal referents, most of which do not even name the study to which they are referring, I find that the majority of home-schooling advocates are speaking from a religious platform, and I question their impartiality in differentiating between scholastic performance and religious indoctrination.
Where do you get this opinion?
I get the opinion exactly the same place you get yours, right out of my opinionated mind! I have searched for scientifically designed studies demonstrating either a pro or con for home schooling, and I have found none. So it is, as you state, a matter of opinion.
And even if it is true, why do you think anybody as a right to say they cannot make this descision for their children?
I have to rephrase your question. I think you meant to say: "why do you think that anyone has a right to deny another person the right to choose home schooling over formal public or private schooling" If this is indeed your question, my answer is, as before, the State has the authority in some states to deny (or to tightly control) the right of citizens of that State to homeschool their children; just as most states have the legal perogative to require that children have at least an elementary school education.

We live in a nation of laws. "Rights" are frequently defined by those laws. A state's right to legislate home schooling, in these instances, is granted by the particular state constitution and has been ratified by the legislature and possibly by referendum, and is law!

Anyone may have any opinion they want about this matter, but opinions don't subrogate laws!
They always do. You seem to think that a parent can force a grown child to keep one religion over another.
No, a parent doesn't need to force a grown child to have or keep a particular religious fantasy once the child has been indoctrinated since preschool! This is demonstrated over and over in history! Hitler Youth! The nutcase Mormons down in Texas recently! The idiotic, brainwashed children and teenagers from Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other middle eastern countries that are taught to blow themselves up for the glory of Allah!

Some, usually pretty bright, kids are taught fundamental Christianity or Catholicism or Islam from kindergarten up through high school, and are smart enough to figure it out after they mature and shed the shackles of religious indoctrination. Most don't!
I became a Christian when I was 32
Why? And what do you hope to either accomplish or learn at this hellish, doomed, atheisticly besotted group of SFN forums? Proselytization? The difference between Faith and Reason? Come on, Robb you're full of shit, but you can't believe that either of those things is going to happen!
Yes I have doubts at times.
If you truly have doubts, then why not give your children the benefit of those doubts and let them grow up open to studying and adopting or rejecting religion when they are old enough to genuinely think seriously about such matters?
But no, it is not wishful thinking. I would rather people cease to exist when they die than go to hell.
You would rather you or "people" cease existence than go to hell? If the latter, why shouldn't naughty folks like me that say "fuck God", go to Hell? I have cursed, profaned, and blasphemed; surely I deserve to rot in Hell for an eternity, don't I? Or do I?
My argument is that it is up to the parents when and how to teach religeous belief.
And my argument is, you may be wrong in your religious beliefs! You have said so yourself. Give your kids credit for a good enough intellectual apparatus, when it has matured, to figure it out for themselves! Even if it takes until they are 32!
Why should you get to tell me that I cannot teach my children about God until adulthood?
Why I should tell you is because I have strong, rational opinions on the subject. I can not order you to do anything, I do not have the power of the State. If your state orders you not to home-school your kids, you have three choices. Move, break the law, or comply! With me, you can say: 'You have a point' or 'Fuck you' Neither matters a tinker's damn!
Yes. If some christians get their way, and get mandatory prayer or religious teaching in school, then they will teach christianity, isam, budhism etc as well.
And well they should. All the religions you mention are equally flawed and the sooner in life a person realizes this, the sooner they can break the restrictive bounds of religious thinking and free their minds of nonsense! The more one studies alternative religious faiths, the more it becomes apparent that they all are pure bullshit!
Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for
I hope that that I am much smarter, better educated, and much more correct on the matters we have been discussing here than you are! In fact, I am sure of these things! So does that make them fact? If so, you must change your opinions. If not, what good is faith if it does not represent fact? Is it not just superstition?
and certain of what we do not see."
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead. Does my "faith" make such events false? If so, you should stop believing them. If not, faith doesn't work and it is a stupid waste of time!
The question is how can we be "sure" and "certain" of things unseen. That is a totally different discussion and study.
I'm ready. Start a thread.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  21:22:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb.....

Originally posted by bngbuck
What is condescending about "This is a remarkable statement coming from a person committed to Christian mysticism. I strongly commend you for making it!"? Robb is committed to a superstitious belief system, and I do commend him for supporting a position that such bullshit should not be taught in the schools! Other than that, he is as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey!
You ask....
Why must you have discussions in this manner? It's ok to disagree but I do not understand alot of the venum on this board from you and others.
Is it "venomous" to commend you for your comment? No, obviously not! So you must be referring to.....
Other than that, he is as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey
Well, Robb, If you haven't learned it yet, you will before you shuffle off this mortal coil. There really are different strokes for different folks.

I do not in any way connect my statement above with "venom". I think, hell, I know, that your religious convictions are foolish, stupid, superstitious, dumb, and, most of all wrong and not grounded in any evidence or proven fact at all.

Now that took 30 words to spell out, and was not very forceful, to boot. "You're full of shit" only takes 4, and really gets the point over.

Venom is poison. "Bullshit" is not poisonous prose, it is a very direct and to the point way of stating "you are wrong" If I called you a "dumb motherfucker that's full of shit", the rhetoric would start to verge on the poisonous, because "dumb" and "motherfucker" are rather insulting, personal terms. But "full of shit as a Christmas Turkey" is a rather jolly, holiday-oriented way of saying that you are wrong. Nothing personal at all!

I, personally, am frequently as full of shit as a New Year's Terducken (that's a turkey stuffed with a duck that's stuffed with a chicken), and that's a lot more shit than mere turkey dressing!

You are more than welcome to address me as "full of shit as a New Year Terducken," and I will revel in your recognition of my talent at bullshitting!
Why must you tear down people?
Robb, you poor baby, I am not trying to tear you down! I am trying to make you think There is nothing evil or inhuman in being wrong. You have obviously led a sheltered life as you are offended by street language. To me, it's just language, with no connotation of malevolence! Words cannot hurt you, Robb!

And I certainly have no intention of tearing you down! As Dude recently remarked to me, you are much more of the real article than BillScott, who is a charlatan! I am sure you are devout in your foolish faith! Your statements are honest representations of your belief system.

I disagree with it strongly because it is irrational and superstitious, but you are not a bad person, or even a very dumb person. You obviously have been brainwashed by some event or another -some extreme emotional epiphany that brought you to Christianity at 32 - about the time you should have been seeing how wrong it was! I don't condemn you in any way for mentally malfunctioning on this level. I've been nuts myself a couple of times, and I can personally empathize with mental disorder. I just hope you come to reason someday in your next 32 years! Learn enough, and you will!
I am really looking for an answer. Are your arguments really more important than people? Why do you think it is appropriate to talk like this as an adult?
Arguments are not rated on the same value scale as are people! Can you evaluate the worth of an pineapple with a quality chart that ranks cocoa beans?

I, and others, can compare my arguments to yours; and make value judgments - but one cannot evaluate your worth (or mine) as a human being on the same scale!
Why do you think it is appropriate to talk like this as an adult?
Because you are an adult, with all that that connotes! I would not dream of using such scatological terms with a child!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  21:53:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, bngbuck: I think you are preparing your holiday birds incorrectly.

(Note to self: stay out of Idaho in December and January. If that's not possible, do not eat fowl.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2008 :  05:46:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

Don't knock it til' you've tried it! Idaho doesn't have turkeys, ducks, or chickens. Only potatoes. We eat bakers stuffed with reds which have been stuffed with baby new potatoes.

I have eaten nothing but potatoes for over a year and a half, now, and I have gained 368 pounds, my carbo index is 1073, and, as you have noted several times, I have become a bit starchy!

When I lived in your enlightened part of the US, I prepared Terducken daily and alternately quacked, cackled, and gobbled. Gobbled a lot, gained 205 pounds. We deep fried Terducken!

(Note to self: stay out of Idaho in December and January. If that's not possible, do not eat fowl.)
Idaho is closed by private militias eleven months out of each year. If you are coming here, shave your head or you will be shot at the border. Tourists are admitted in June, in order to replenish the food supply, as we run out of storage potatoes and the new crop isn't in til' July. We don't like being cannibals, but, hell, somebody's gotta do it, and we are all Republican Fundamentalists, so eating Eastern Liberal Motherfuckers is our sacred right and duty!
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