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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2008 : 06:08:17 [Permalink]
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EC liberals can be pretty boney. You need to be careful not to choke on the pistol. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2008 : 07:33:12 [Permalink]
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You seem to have missed your own emphasis. In this recipe, for example, I note the utter lack of terms scatalogical, and I believe the goal of most food preparers is to eliminate feces as best one can. If your traditions include birds that are "full of" it, I want nothing to do with them.
Where I'm from, the holiday feast is prepared with more care than a regular meal, so as to ensure that the whole extended family isn't poisoned at all once. Therefore, to be "as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey" is to be as completely devoid of poop as is humanly possible. If Idahoans aim for the polar opposite, I think I'll refrain.
Regardless, your other remarks make Idaho seem truly warm and welcoming... compared to New Jersey. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:13:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I have to rephrase your question. I think you meant to say: "why do you think that anyone has a right to deny another person the right to choose home schooling over formal public or private schooling" If this is indeed your question, my answer is, as before, the State has the authority in some states to deny (or to tightly control) the right of citizens of that State to homeschool their children; just as most states have the legal perogative to require that children have at least an elementary school education.
We live in a nation of laws. "Rights" are frequently defined by those laws. A state's right to legislate home schooling, in these instances, is granted by the particular state constitution and has been ratified by the legislature and possibly by referendum, and is law!
Anyone may have any opinion they want about this matter, but opinions don't subrogate laws! |
So do you agree with the state laws?
Originally posted by bngbuck
No, a parent doesn't need to force a grown child to have or keep a particular religious fantasy once the child has been indoctrinated since preschool! This is demonstrated over and over in history! Hitler Youth! The nutcase Mormons down in Texas recently! The idiotic, brainwashed children and teenagers from Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other middle eastern countries that are taught to blow themselves up for the glory of Allah!
Some, usually pretty bright, kids are taught fundamental Christianity or Catholicism or Islam from kindergarten up through high school, and are smart enough to figure it out after they mature and shed the shackles of religious indoctrination. Most don't! |
This may be true, I don't know, but I believe that the parent has the right to teach their children whatever religious beliefs they want. Parents teach their kids bigotry and racism as well. I do not agree with them but the government has no right to tell them to stop. If this is the way they want their kids to be then so be it.
| I became a Christian when I was 32 |
Originally posted by bngbuck
Why? |
You would not beleive me.
Originally posted by bngbuck
And what do you hope to either accomplish or learn at this hellish, doomed, atheisticly besotted group of SFN forums? Proselytization? The difference between Faith and Reason? Come on, Robb you're full of shit, but you can't believe that either of those things is going to happen! |
Do you want someone with a differing opinion to go? If so I will leave if asked by the moderators.
Originally posted by bngbuck
| Yes I have doubts at times. |
If you truly have doubts, then why not give your children the benefit of those doubts and let them grow up open to studying and adopting or rejecting religion when they are old enough to genuinely think seriously about such matters? |
When do you think we should teach children anything? My kindergardener is told in school that the moon revolves around the sun. She believes it because the teacher says so. Should we wait until she is old enough to understand the science and math behind such a claim?
Originally posted by bngbuck
You would rather you or "people" cease existence than go to hell? If the latter, why shouldn't naughty folks like me that say "fuck God", go to Hell? I have cursed, profaned, and blasphemed; surely I deserve to rot in Hell for an eternity, don't I? Or do I? |
You and I both deserve to go to hell.
Originally posted by bngbuck
And my argument is, you may be wrong in your religious beliefs! You have said so yourself. Give your kids credit for a good enough intellectual apparatus, when it has matured, to figure it out for themselves! Even if it takes until they are 32! |
Why should you or the government have any say in what I teach my children. So what if it is wrong. It is the parents descision and not anybody elses. Do you think it is morally to teach children about a invisible god?
Originally posted by bngbuck
| Why should you get to tell me that I cannot teach my children about God until adulthood? |
Why I should tell you is because I have strong, rational opinions on the subject. I can not order you to do anything, I do not have the power of the State. If your state orders you not to home-school your kids, you have three choices. Move, break the law, or comply! With me, you can say: 'You have a point' or 'Fuck you' Neither matters a tinker's damn! |
I agree. Would you support the state to not home school children?
Originally posted by bngbuck
I hope that that I am much smarter, better educated, and much more correct on the matters we have been discussing here than you are! In fact, I am sure of these things! So does that make them fact? If so, you must change your opinions. If not, what good is faith if it does not represent fact? Is it not just superstition? |
AGain we need a different thread to discuss why faith is not just wishful thinking.
Originally posted by bngbuck
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead. Does my "faith" make such events false? If so, you should stop believing them. If not, faith doesn't work and it is a stupid waste of time! |
How are you certain?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:50:36 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| In this recipe, for example, I note the utter lack of terms scatalogical, and I believe the goal of most food preparers is to eliminate feces as best one can. |
You display your utter lack of familiarity with Paul P.
This is a nutria
The coypu, or nutria (Myocastor coypus) is a large, herbivorous, semiaquatic rodent
Actually, just your basic river rat!
In 1995, ABC News, in its report on the nutria (coypu) infestation in Louisiana, stated that Prudhomme bought 20,000 such carcasses, freezing them in the hopes of later selling them as cooked dishes to patrons. That effort failed to attract any significant number of patrons after Nutria Nausea became a local epidemic, and Prudhomme then returned to his normal practice of serving highly seasoned roadkill to his patrons.| Where I'm from, the holiday feast is prepared with more care than a regular meal, so as to ensure that the whole extended family isn't poisoned all at once. |
I do feel very fortunate not to be a member of your extended family, anticipating individual poisoning at most any time now!| to be "as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey" is to be as completely devoid of poop as is humanly possible. |
You pitiful Virgin Virginians are not Real Men who never eat quiche, but gleefully anticipate eating shit at every opportunity!
Idahoans actually defecate out of the oral orifice, and speak and pull things out of their asses! Haven't you noticed?
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 05/19/2008 11:54:19 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 12:04:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Robb.....
You ask....| Why must you have discussions in this manner? It's ok to disagree but I do not understand alot of the venum on this board from you and others. |
Is it "venomous" to commend you for your comment? No, obviously not! So you must be referring to.....| Other than that, he is as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey |
Well, Robb, If you haven't learned it yet, you will before you shuffle off this mortal coil. There really are different strokes for different folks. |
I understand. I just thought that when dealing with others this type of language does not need to be used. You make your points very well without them.
You are more than welcome to address me as "full of shit as a New Year Terducken," and I will revel in your recognition of my talent at bullshitting!| Why must you tear down people? |
Robb, you poor baby, I am not trying to tear you down! I am trying to make you think There is nothing evil or inhuman in being wrong. You have obviously led a sheltered life as you are offended by street language. To me, it's just language, with no connotation of malevolence! Words cannot hurt you, Robb! |
I never said I was offended. I knew you would use the poor baby routine. I am not whining or offended I just do not think that type of language is needed. I know you have a much greater grasp of the english language than that.
As for assuming that I have lived a sheltered life, you are wrong again. You seem to have pigeonholed me into your steroetype of a christian. I was in the navy for 6 years and I assure you I have heard and said almost every vulgar thing there is.
In general word can hurt. If I tell my wife that she is a terrible mother and wife, I assure you she would be hurt by that.
| I disagree with it strongly because it is irrational and superstitious, but you are not a bad person, or even a very dumb person. You obviously have been brainwashed by some event or another -some extreme emotional epiphany that brought you to Christianity at 32 - about the time you should have been seeing how wrong it was! I don't condemn you in any way for mentally malfunctioning on this level. I've been nuts myself a couple of times, and I can personally empathize with mental disorder. I just hope you come to reason someday in your next 32 years! Learn enough, and you will! |
What basis do you have to say that believing in a fairy tale is wrong?
| Arguments are not rated on the same value scale as are people! Can you evaluate the worth of an pineapple with a quality chart that ranks cocoa beans? |
Do you value people over your opinions?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 15:12:51 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
| So do you agree with the state laws? |
Yes, largely. Education of the very young is a serious, important undertaking, and, with few exceptions, should not be practiced by amateurs!| I believe that the parent has the right to teach their children whatever religious beliefs they want. Parents teach their kids bigotry and racism as well. I do not agree with them but the government has no right to tell them to stop. If this is the way they want their kids to be then so be it. |
Parents are also free to teach their kids to be greedy, and malevolent, and socially irresponsible, and murderous and rapacious. And you say "so be it"?
Robb, you make me more glad by the minute that I am not a Christian!| You would not beleive me. |
Are you a mind reader in addition to your Christian niceties, Robb? I see you as a genuinely honest person, not inclined to lying. Of course I would believe that whatever you told me was a true statement on your part! Are you afraid to tell me?| Do you want someone with a differing opinion to go? If so I will leave if asked by the moderators. |
No one is asking you to go, you're too damn much fun to needle! All I ask is that you answer my questions instead of dancing around like Fred Astaire! I answer yours, how about reciprocation?| When do you think we should teach children anything? |
From the day the're born! Children need to learn an enormous number of basic living skills and life information from their parents, but the most useful single thing a parent can teach a child is how to think, not how to swallow the pronunciations of those that simply want to control him, use him, and later extract his money in the form of tithes!| My kindergardener is told in school that the moon revolves around the sun. She believes it because the teacher says so. Should we wait until she is old enough to understand the science and math behind such a claim? |
If she is being told that the moon's primary orbit is around the sun, you should correct both her and the teacher. If the teacher is referring to the fact that both the moon and the Earth revolve around the sun, it may be too complicated a concept for her age.
But if you meant to say that she is being taught that the moon revolves around the Earth, of course you should not wait until she can understand basic astronomy! That the moon revolves around the Earth is a demonstrable fact, not opinion or dogma! The story of Jesus is a hell of a long way from being a demonstrable fact, as is the question of the existence of God! I defy you to prove otherwise! There are photographs proving the moon revolves around the Earth! To teach a kindergartener that there is a God, is to teach an unprovable opinion, not a fact!| You and I both deserve to go to hell. |
Oh, fuck!, Robb That deserves me calling you dumb as a sack of hammers!
1. There is no Hell. Prove to me there is!
2. Even if there was, why would you deserve to go there? I thought Jesus saved your sorry ass!
2. And if you deserve to go to ordinary Hell, why shouldn't I deserve to go to Super Hell, because I deeply and sincerely believe that your God and all the Jesus shit is a crock of christian crap, and I give everybody I talk to about the subject, that very opinion! I should be at the top of your stupid God's shit list for Hell!| Why should you or the government have any say in what I teach my children. |
Because the State has a legitimate interest in the way kids are educated if we are to have a literate, informed, productive, free citizenry! Who can think , not just blindly obey!| It is the parents descision and not anybody elses. |
Not if the parents are wrong! Some crazies would raise their children to kill! Do you favor that? Suicide bombers? Read the newspapers!| Would you support the state to not home school children? |
I support the State carefully qualifying those who would teach our children! Qualifying as to their competence, education, temperament, and impartiality! Including parents!| AGain we need a different thread to discuss why faith is not just wishful thinking. |
I said I was ready. But why don't you answer the paradoxes I have posed to you about "faith" either disproving your belief or being superstition? Is it because you can't? Originally posted by bngbuck
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead.
How are you certain? |
It's my stupid faith in reason and rationality, just like your stupid faith in superstition and irrationality! Do you think we both could be wrong? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 16:00:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
2. Even if there was, why would you deserve to go there? I thought Jesus saved your sorry ass!
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According to Christian doctrin, everyone deserves to go to hell. The act of believeing in Jesus is Robb's get-out-of-jail-free card.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 19:24:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by bngbuck
2. Even if there was, why would you deserve to go there? I thought Jesus saved your sorry ass!
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According to Christian doctrin, everyone deserves to go to hell. The act of believeing in Jesus is Robb's get-out-of-jail-free card.
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trusting not believing. satan and demons believe jesus is the son of god. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 20:29:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
satan and demons believe jesus is the son of god. |
No, they don't. They know it for a fact. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 02:50:44 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
| I understand. I just thought that when dealing with others this type of language does not need to be used. You make your points very well without them. |
If you truly understood, you could not say, "this type of language does not need to be used." There is no "type' of language that needs to be used! Or that should not, for any reason, be used. Language is a tool used to craft understanding. There is no such thing as "good" or "bad" language!
Apparently, in your case, there is some sort of aversion to the sound, inferred meaning, or extended connotation of certain words or phrases that disturbs you. Can't you see, Robb that; as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so also is meaning in the ear of the auditor? And when your eye reads the written word, your mind "hears" the word spoken.
The only rules for a writer are to use words that communicate - both meaning and mood! Anything goes, including neologism, foreign words, profanity, polysyllabics that require a dictionary, nonsense, quotation, slang and the King's English! I would far rather offend or disturb, than I would wish to miscommunicate!
| I never said I was offended. |
But you were, or you would not say | I just thought that when dealing with others this type of language does not need to be used. |
Of course, it does not need to be used. But neither is there a valid reason not to use disphemism or scatology if it emphasizes, clarifies or seasons an otherwise dull or imprecise discourse.
To label, or even perceive, certain words or expressions as unpleasant or offensive without considering the meaning and intent of the speaker, is to create a solipsistic value system of language sensibilities that is much more an indicator of your particular biases than it is a commentary on the linquistic abilities of the writer!| You make your points very well without them. |
Perhaps. But discourse can quickly become dull without color, contrast, and a soupçon of contumely! | I am not whining or offended I just do not think that type of language is needed. I know you have a much greater grasp of the english language than that. |
I have enough grasp of the mother tongue to know that "the english language" encompasses all of words, phrases and constructions that can be employed to communicate ideation and emotion! There is no value scale or goodness index for words. There is only a gestalt that occurs when a fortuitous combination of lexemes succeeds in achieving communication!| You seem to have pigeonholed me into your steroetype of a christian. |
Yes, that was intentional. You write like a pigeonholed Christian. Why not tell why you became a Christian? I am attempting to get you to open up and say something real and interesting like; "I was in the navy for 6 years and I assure you I have heard and said almost every vulgar thing there is." or "If I tell my wife that she is a terrible mother and wife, I assure you she would be hurt by that."
How else would I discover that you are married to the mother of your children and have been in the navy? If you hugged your wife and told her that she was a terrible mother and wife with a twinkle in your eye and levity in your voice, (as I do frequently with my wife), she would not be hurt, she would giggle!
And that further underlines the challenge of writing, as the twinkle and the levity have to be put in black and white! Context becomes essential to communication!| What basis do you have to say that believing in a fairy tale is wrong? |
Six years of academic study and a long lifetime of observation.
Believing a fairy tale is delusionary behavior and can easily lead to enforced isolation from society. It is indeed a very bad road to go down! Believing in fairy tales, as you appear to do along with most Christians, is reasonably harmless, depending upon how much your actions are directed by your illusions. A few centuries ago, the Christian overseers of the Inquisition certainly transformed a fairy tale into a horror story, as are the perverters of Islam doing today in the middle east. The damage done by delusion is directly proportional to where the deluded is - on a continuum of irrationality ranging from idle fancy all the way to hallucination! | Do you value people over your opinions? |
Well, that's a treacherous question. In order to value a person, I must first form an opinion of them. If that opinion is significantly negative, I will not hold the person in high esteem. If you are asking if I can positively value a person of whom I have formed a negative opinion, the answer is no; and, of course, the converse is true!
Do I put a higher value on expressing my opinions than the value I put on offending a person by such expression? That depends upon two things: 1. Who the person I may offend is and how well I know them. 2. What the particular opinion(s) in question are.
In general, I tend to be rather brutally frank in dispensing opinion; and I certainly am not alone in that respect here at SFN!
Your question is unfortunately ambiguous, Robb. I have done my best to answer it, but I may have misunderstood what you are asking!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 06:34:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by bngbuck
2. Even if there was, why would you deserve to go there? I thought Jesus saved your sorry ass!
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According to Christian doctrin, everyone deserves to go to hell. The act of believeing in Jesus is Robb's get-out-of-jail-free card.
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trusting not believing. satan and demons believe jesus is the son of god.
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That's not what Rome 10:9 says in the Swedish translation, but that's splitting hairs. The point was that both of you deserves to go to hell and one has the get-out-of-jail-free card.
In my experience, such a card have a tendency to make people arrogant.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 07:14:06 [Permalink]
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Well; unless I am wrong; some Christians believe that it is the intercession of Jesus to allow people to avoid Hell. He is like the defence lawyer to our final judgement.
That's not what Baptists, for example, believe, for sure. But I like this version better.
It implies that people are judged on their personal worth not their belief system and I like that better than a system were Jeffery Dahmer is going to heaven instead of Gandhi or Carl Sagan... (and most mass murderers appear to be very religious).
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 05/20/2008 07:48:56 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 07:37:23 [Permalink]
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I prefer the 'Defending Your Life'* version of the afterlife. It's like a secular reincarnation scheme.
*It's a movie |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 07:48:20 [Permalink]
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| Sweet! Thanks! (I was forgetting the "s ) |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Sally Kern continues her campaign....
