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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2002 : 12:31:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
It was interesting to see the mention of a King David when I thought that it has been shown that David is a mythological character that never actually lived.
Now that you mention it I wonder if we Celts can get the UN to give us England back? After all King Arthur didn't live a lot less time ago than King David didn't live. We could herd the English into ghettos and let them work in the Celtic section if they had the right passes.
And while we're at it we'd like France back too, please.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 05/03/2002 12:36:02 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 12:35:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's a real mess. The choice between antisemitic genocide on the one hand, and the vicious expulsion and oppression of the Palestinians on the other, is not one I'm willing to make
I thought they were all Semites.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 12:49:50 [Permalink]
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LOL, good point. Yes they are!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 14:01:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It's a real mess. The choice between antisemitic genocide on the one hand, and the vicious expulsion and oppression of the Palestinians on the other, is not one I'm willing to make.
I thought they were all Semites. [by Slater - RD]
quote:
LOL, good point. Yes they are! [by @tomic - RD]
quote:
anti-Semitism: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group [Merriam-Webster Dictionary - RD]
Though I expect it to matter very little, I find neither anti-Semitism nor the related word-play particulary funny. The word has a specific meaning resulting from a specific history: quote:
In 1878, the Social Democratic Party was outlawed, and democratic efforts were stifled. In the 1890s, political democracy was blocked by the rising power of German industrialists and diverted by imperialist expansion. This period also coincided with a new cycle of anti-Semitism, with Jews being blamed for manipulating peasants and small businessmen into resisting the traditional social and economic order. Jews were blamed for the severe economic depression of 1873. In the same year, Wilhelm Marr, a journalist who coined the term "anti-Semitism," wrote a pamphlet, "The Victory of Jewry over Germandom." It was very successful, going through twelve editions in six years. Using ideas of race and Vilkisch nationalism, Marr argued that Jews had become the "first major power in the West" in the 19th century. He accused the Jews of being liberals, a people without roots who had Judaized Germans "beyond salvation." In 1879, he founded the League for Anti-Semitism.
[see http://www.remember.org/guide/History.root.modern.html - RD]
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 14:43:16 [Permalink]
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It's not word play. It's just a fact.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 15:34:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's not word play. It's just a fact.
Sem'ite, Shem'ite, n. [LL. Sem; Gr. Sém,] a member of any of the peoples whose language is Semitic, including the Hebrews, Arabs, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Babylonians, etc.; not, specifically, a Jew
I didn't add that "not, specifically, a Jew" line, that's straight from Webster's New 20th Century Dictionary, Unabridged.
That's the saddest part of this whole brew-ha-ha. They are all one people. The only thing separating them is religion. Each side thinks they are gods chosen elect.
And if you want to see the source of Nazi Anti-semiteism in Germany check out the writings of Martin Luther. Hitler used Luther's ravings about the Jews as his personal guide.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 05/03/2002 15:38:09 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 15:55:24 [Permalink]
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It is word play and it has a history.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 16:44:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is word play and it has a history.
Anti-Semitism is a specific form of racial prejudice. The hatred of Semites. Both sides are Semites. There's no getting past that they hate one another. There's no getting past that they have a history. {
I attended a Sadah (sp?) this year where the irony was not lost on the host who announced that instead of rehashing 4000 year old beefs the theme would be "let by gones be by gones." His wife didn't find that funny.}
But as much as they truely and dearly hate one another they are pro-semitic.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 17:43:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It is word play and it has a history.
Anti-Semitism is a specific form of racial prejudice. The hatred of Semites. Both sides are Semites
Let me try this again. It's important to me.
A word is defined, first by its etymology, then by its usage. I was relatively active in the civil rights movement in the late 50s and 60s. It was relatively common to hear racists insist that the term "nigger" was no more than an old-South derivation of the Spanish word for black. But, irrespective of its etymology, the term means something very different.
You choose to ignore/reject both the history and the dictionary definition of the term "anti-Semitism". Your approach is not dissimilar to your decomposition of the word "homosexual" in the discusion on pedophilia. I do not know why you would take such a stance, but I sincerely hope you will review the topic and reconsider the position.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:08:51 [Permalink]
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Please forward to me a list of thoughts that I am allowed to think.
At the moment I am thinking that you are prejudiced against the Palestinians because you wish to deny them even the name of their race.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:26:49 [Permalink]
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Please forward to me a list of thoughts that I am allowed to think.
I haven't a clue what you're talking about.
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At the moment I am thinking that you are prejudiced against the Palestinians because you wish to deny them even the name of their race.
Race? Good grief!
For what it's worth, I would (and have) opposed the settlements and supported the refuseniks in Israel. Neither that fact, nor your attitude, changes the historic meaning or the dictionary definition of anti-Semitism.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:32:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Though I expect it to matter very little, I find neither anti-Semitism nor the related word-play particulary funny. The word has a specific meaning resulting from a specific history:
Unfortunetely the history is not discussed very objectively on the site you quoted from. It brings us a rather one-sided view on the it's history. It is still not quite as bad as the page before that about classical anti-semitism, where they quote from the bible as if it was a historical document.
As for the specific meaning you menitoned. Especially today there appear to be a lot of different opinions of what constitutes anti-semitism. Some people for example consider every sort of criticism of Israeli politics no matter how strong or how justified as anti-semitic.
And not finding it the ironic difference between the etymolgical and the current meaning funny is a bad sign. It means that you consider some concepts above such things. Such reverence and reluctance to question is easily exploited.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 19:04:35 [Permalink]
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And if you want to see the source of Nazi Anti-semiteism in Germany check out the writings of Martin Luther. Hitler used Luther's ravings about the Jews as his personal guide.
Hitler did use anti-semtic quotes from Luther to justfy his ideolgy. He used quotes from about anybody, whose name might mean somthing and who had said something that could be taken as a justificatin.
Antisemitism clearly did not beginn with Luther in Germany and while his writings where used to justfy nazi ideology it was far from being a major influence on the architects of the Holocaust.
Luther himself was a religious lunatic. He was lucky that the catholic church was so much more crazy that he could not possibly make things worse then them. He initially expected the Jews to join his new and reformed christianity. When the Jews failed to recognize the one true religion he had created he grew bitter. His writings turned from essays about the jewish roots of Jesus to polemic demands to burn down their synagogues.
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 19:55:01 [Permalink]
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Unfortunetely the history is not discussed very objectively on the site you quoted from. It brings us a rather one-sided view on the it's history.
The site is clearly not objective. I have no reason to believe that its bias is relevant in this case. I am more than willing to review any site suggesting that the reference to Wilhelm Marr is inaccurate and/or that there is 'another side' to Marr.
quote:
As for the specific meaning you menitoned.
It is not only "the specific meaning [I] menitoned"; it is the historical definition and the only definition I can find in the dictionary
quote:
Especially today there appear to be a lot of different opinions of what constitutes anti-semitism.
I've recently encountered it on two occassions -- in these discussions, and in a rhetorical effort by an Egyptian diplomat to dismiss charges of anti-Semitism in their elementary school textbooks (i.e., 'how could we be antisemetic. We're semites too.'). I am, frankly, unaware of "a lot of different opinions of what constitutes anti-Semitism". I find the thought disturbing.
quote:
Some people for example consider every sort of criticism of Israeli politics no matter how strong or how justified as anti-semitic.
I consider that position to be absolutely inaccurate.
quote:
And not finding it the ironic difference between the etymolgical and the current meaning funny is a bad sign.
If the etymology is accurately addressed in the Marr reference, and the "current meaning" is accurately represented by the dictionary, then there is no difference, ironic or otherwise. If not, I stand corrected.
quote:
It means that you consider some concepts above such things. Such reverence and reluctance to question is easily exploited.
Respectfully, it seems to me that you've successfully defeated a straw man of your own creation with a bit of moralistic pop-psychology. Believe what you will: I have no reverence for anti-Semitism, no reverence for Zionism, no reverence for nationalism, no reverence for racism and, finally, no reluctance to question.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 07:50:05 [Permalink]
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Sorry, ReasonableDoubt. I fear I misunderstood you.
First I never contended the current usage of the word anti-semitism or it's origin with Marr. The site you quoted is right on that part. He took a word that referred to all semites to created a word that referred only to Jews. Since there were not many Semites, who were not Jews in Germany at that time, the difference between the meaning of the parts and the usage of the whole new word were not important. Now that the Usage has been firmly established and the word has gained an immense emotional impact, it is used in situations where this difference is bigger. I am not advocating that we suddenly change the meaning of a well established word because it's current usage contradicts it's roots.
When I further down mentioned different definitions of anti-semitism in legitimate use, I did not mean to include any definitions like the one of the egyptian diplomat you mentioned. I thought of those people who use anti-semitism as a broad label to include almost anything they dislike.
The strawman argument I think was an overreaction on my part. I realize now that I read to much into your comment about not thinking it 'funny'. Sorry. It is just that I often encounter people, who when they say that they don't find jokes about a particular emotionladden subject funny, mean that I should not find them funny either and that it would be best if we only handled the subject in question with very special care.
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