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 US admits that Global Warming is happening
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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2002 :  20:04:00  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
The New York Times writes of a new report to the UN by the Bush administartion. (registration required)

The report admits that global warming is in fact happening and that it is caused by humans.

This admission will make a lot of people happy. The strategy it suggests to deal with this newfound knowledge probably won't. The report recommends adapting to the inevitable changes that are going to happen.

So we have gone from "It's not happening, so we don't need to do anything." over "It's natural, so we don't need to do anything." to "Its inevitable, so there is nothing we can do."?

Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2002 :  21:50:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:

So we have gone from "It's not happening, so we don't need to do anything." over "It's natural, so we don't need to do anything." to "Its inevitable, so there is nothing we can do."?


Sigh!!! People are idiots.
Me, I'll believe it when I see it.
I think it's just another way to get either tax money from us to fund programs to 'take care of' the situation or for business to 'invent' ways to combat it so everyone will run out or be forced to buy the latest gadget for their car or refridgerator.
'The sky is falling, the sky is falling'.
Give me a break!
BTW, I didn't read that web site yet, don't need to, it's probably propaganda anyway

* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
-----------------
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
to be amused.
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2002 :  21:51:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
The atmosphere is a large dynamic place and climate change is dependant on a lot of different things.

We may be making a dufference however it may not be a large as some people think.

quote:
Amazon in Carbon Balance


A new study in Nature (April 11, 2002) has found that the rivers and wetlands of the Amazon rainforest may emit as much carbon dioxide as the dry regions of the forest absorb. This suggests that the Amazon may be in carbon equilibrium.


The researchers, led by Jeffrey E. Richey with the School of Oceanography at the University of Washington, conclude that, "Estimates that the tropics are a net carbon sink are not consistent with recent calculations from global inverse modeling, which imply that the tropics are at least in balance with the atmosphere if not a net source."


In other words, the Amazon may not be a net carbon sink. If true, scientists will have to search for other carbon sinks to account for large amounts of carbon dioxide emissions, both natural and anthropogenic, that do not end up in the atmosphere and are not accounted for by known carbon sinks. These findings, however, will help scientists get a better handle on man's contribution to climate change, if any.




From www.globalwarming.org

There are still many who believe that it may not be an issue.

Why are there places (such as Tasmania in Australia for one) that have had lower than average temperatues over the past 50 years??


"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2002 :  21:00:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Why are there places (such as Tasmania in Australia for one) that have had lower than average temperatues over the past 50 years??


Probably because the Earth's temperature is not uniform.


@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2002 :  22:02:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:

Why are there places (such as Tasmania in Australia for one) that have had lower than average temperatues over the past 50 years??


Not sure if you are really asking or just making a statement but have you checked back over...let's say the last 500 years? Wonder what the fluctuation would show!

* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
-----------------
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
to be amused.
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2002 :  22:35:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
From what I can see at http://www.dar.csiro.au/publications/greenhouse_2000c.htm global average temperature has been rising steadily since 1975. However there have been drops in the last 150 odd years also.

Unfortuntely I cannot find records of global average temps since the advent of the industrial revolution...

It has peaked at the current average five times consistently over the past 400,000 years though...I'd presume we are some kind of effect, but what exactly I am unsure...

However I think it may be a media beat up of greater proprtions than it has to be....

Being a surfer, I have a fair interest in metoerology, however my "expertise" is more in short term weather prediction than climatology...

"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin

Edited by - gezzam on 06/04/2002 23:27:04
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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  02:00:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
The 2002 US Climate Action Report can be found at:
http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/publications/car/

The CAR can be downloaded there by those who care. Considering that it is a 5-meg, 268-page PDF document, I doubt that there will be many who will take the time to read.

I have only bwoesed it a bit, but it seems to contain a lot of interesting stuff besides statistics, charts and rhetorics.

Chapter 6 is an especially iteresting read as it tries to predict future impacts of global warming on the US.

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Phobos
New Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  11:04:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phobos a Private Message
Well, I'm new here...I hate to start stepping on toes. Sorry.

quote:

Sigh!!! People are idiots.



Sure, you'll encounter a lot of stupid ideas in the world, but such a generalized insult to the population is unwarranted.

quote:

Me, I'll believe it when I see it.



Being skeptical is not just disbelieving new claims. It's critical thinking. We know the greenhouse effect is a real natural process (no dispute there). There is some evidence that human activities may be contributing to that effect (Global Warming). And there are scientific-based predictions of potential adverse consequences. Yes, there is much uncertainty in such predictions of future results, but to totally ignore warnings until until it becomes more difficult and costly to fix is unwise. I'm not saying we need to all-out change the world so everyone is hugging a tree. I'm saying we need to find a right balance in supporting our economy and proceeding cautiously based on current scientific understanding so as to minimize potential future problems.

quote:

I think it's just another way to get either tax money from us to fund programs to 'take care of' the situation or for business to 'invent' ways to combat it so everyone will run out or be forced to buy the latest gadget for their car or refridgerator.



Skeptics should not resort to conspiracy theories. That is the mark of the anti-skeptic.

quote:

'The sky is falling, the sky is falling'.
Give me a break!



Nor should they resort to strawman arguments.

quote:

BTW, I didn't read that web site yet, don't need to, it's probably propaganda anyway



Again, critical thinking requires that you consider both sides of the argument. Many of the problems skeptics debate result from people being uneducated on the issue. Maybe it is propaganda (I have not read it yet either), but to dismiss it outright is unfair.

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Phobos
New Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  11:09:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phobos a Private Message
Lars - Why do you think this topic belongs in the pseudoscience forum?

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  12:25:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
First off: Hi Phobos! Welcome to SFN! Please forgive any inconsistency; we are still recovering from the not-brief-enough visit of one of the world's true whackos (actually, I kinda miss the clown. Gotta admit, he livened the place up).

Second-off: It seems that Bush (boy wouldn't I love it if HE dropped in for a chat) has refuted the report as just another idle bit of paper from the useless bureaucrats.

Third off: there is no doubt that global warming is happening - too much evidence is in support of it. The question is, as I see it, is: How much are our activities affecting it.

So, ultimantly what we have here is the writhings of a less-than-compentent administration that refuses to listen to science. After all, the Bible ain't sayin' nothin' 'bout no global warmin' 'till maybe Armaggedon. An' evr'body knows the earth is flat, so's how can you get GLOBAL warmin'?

The disgusted filthy.


If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell.
-- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, 20 May 1988

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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  12:33:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
quote:
Lars - Why do you think this topic belongs in the pseudoscience forum?


Good question. Now that I think about pseudoscience probably was not the ideal forum to post it under.

We had a "Global Warming poll" in the pseudoscience forum a while back. There also a several 'skeptic' movements like junkscience.org who think that enviromentalists are practicing 'pseudoscience' in support of their cause.

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Tim
SFN Regular

USA
775 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  13:38:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tim a Private Message
I do agree with Phobos. The problem I have is with multitude of end game scenarios. I've heard everything from global warming is not happening, to it is happening, to it's going to turn a little warmer, then bring on another ice age, to near end of the world prophecies. I've heard that the polar ice caps will thaw appreciably, and that they won't. I've heard that the cause is not anthropomorphic, and that it is. I've heard a lot of things, and still have nothing to hang my hat on.

While, personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution, I would like to know how anyone can know anything with so many 'evidence based' opinions circulating about.

"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson
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Phobos
New Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  14:45:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phobos a Private Message
quote:

First off: Hi Phobos! Welcome to SFN! Please forgive any inconsistency; we are still recovering from the not-brief-enough visit of one of the world's true whackos (actually, I kinda miss the clown. Gotta admit, he livened the place up).



Thanks! Always glad to meet other skeptics.

I've been internet-forum-debating for years...the crackpots keep things interesting. :)

quote:

Second-off: It seems that Bush (boy wouldn't I love it if HE dropped in for a chat) has refuted the report as just another idle bit of paper from the useless bureaucrats.



I wonder if he has read it. Of course, Bush has yet to show any affinity for science.

quote:

Third off: there is no doubt that global warming is happening - too much evidence is in support of it. The question is, as I see it, is: How much are our activities affecting it.



Exactly. The other question is "what will the consequences be?"

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Phobos
New Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  14:51:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phobos a Private Message
quote:

There also a several 'skeptic' movements like junkscience.org who think that enviromentalists are practicing 'pseudoscience' in support of their cause.



No doubt many are. But not all. The world could use some more critical thinking to separate the two.

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Phobos
New Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  14:55:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phobos a Private Message
quote:

While, personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution, I would like to know how anyone can know anything with so many 'evidence based' opinions circulating about.



Yeah, no easy answer. I'm an environmental engineer by profession and I still haven't sorted it all out for myself. Erring on the side of caution sounds wise to me (but not going overboard and jumping onto a Luddite bandwagon).

quote:

"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson



yikes! did he really say that? never ceases to amaze me.

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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2002 :  15:31:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Yeah, no easy answer. I'm an environmental engineer by profession and I still haven't sorted it all out for myself. Erring on the side of caution sounds wise to me (but not going overboard and jumping onto a Luddite bandwagon).


Is protecting the environment ever a bad idea?

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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