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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2002 : 03:10:14 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm not sure I'm clear about what she was talking about. My impression was that she was talking about people, because Lisa and others seem to have been saying that I'm against soldiers somehow because I think the Defense Department spends money making defense contractors rich that ought to be used on health care and education. I think the Defense Budget is way too big.
I think war is a crime against humanity, and I've seen no good evidence to prove that statement wrong.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/20/2002 03:19:49 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2002 : 04:18:56 [Permalink]
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http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm
to see how much of your income tax money goes to the Defense Budget.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2002 : 16:07:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Civic duties take a precedence over what? What are civic duties? Trying to keep our elected officials from committing crimes or helping them to commit crimes?
Trying to keep people like Saddam Hussein from being powerful, or helping the U.S. administration make him powerful? What are your duties?
Ok, this is going to sound rather naive, but the primray mission of the military is to defend the US. That's the oath that we take, to defend the constitution of the US from all enemies both foreign and domestic. But as for some of your implications regarding the purpose of the military, no and i think you're fully aware of that.
As for civic duties, any service to country is a civic duty, and taking presedence, well, over our personal position at any given time, whether we personally agree with official US policy or not, a contract was signed and an oath taken, and that takes precedence. Unfortunately, political office has seemingly ceased to be a civic duty and become a way to make money.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2002 : 18:14:41 [Permalink]
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Sorry. I don't quite know what you're saying. I'm fully aware of what? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with something that I said?
quote:
But as for some of your implications regarding the purpose of the military, no and i think you're fully aware of that.
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"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2002 : 20:27:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think the Defense Department spends money making defense contractors rich that ought to be used on health care and education. I think the Defense Budget is way too big.
I think war is a crime against humanity, and I've seen no good evidence to prove that statement wrong.
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm
to see how much of your income tax money goes to the Defense Budget.
Ah, so we do agree. And YES, that's far too much to spend on defense. Shamefully wasteful from the exposes I've seen.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 09:10:32 [Permalink]
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Yeah, the shameful waste of tax dollars on the military.
Like trying to protect food convoys in Somalia from marauding warlords.
Stopping genocide and mass rape in Kosovo.
Protecting unarmed Kurds from Iraqi attack helicopters and chemical weapons.
Toppling the Taliban. After all, who minds a little acid thrown in women's faces?
Massive relief efforts in places like Rwanda.
Medical and relief efforts for Kurds and Shiites.
Taking down a Panamanian dictator who was neck deep in narco-trafficking.
Rescuing medical students in Grenada, as well as taking down another effort to Sovietize an island nation.
Yeah, we just suck. BUt oh yeah, you weren't there for any of that. Other did the fighting and dying so you could sit at home an bitch how evil the US is.
Smell the glove!!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 09:13:29 [Permalink]
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Well, now we know the Truth. Thank you.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 09:41:11 [Permalink]
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An 'emotional' commitment?
You bet your ass. I've buried good friends who died way too young. Good men that never came home. That left families without fathers, sons and leader.
They did their job. They got sent to shitholes where the same people we were feeding shot at us. They got spit on, snipered, blown up, all doing what they believed in.
It's pathetic that soemone couldn't muster the intestinal fortitude to do his or her part in this country's defense. To bask in the rights won by people who purchased them with thier own blood. Only to bitch at the method of how it was won.
Too bad you could never hold anything so dear as to die for it. Webster may disagree, but to me, that defines cowardice.
Emotional? Goddamn right. After enduring what soldiers endure, all for the belief in the ideal of this country. After being shot at, mortared, snipered, and having my favorite truck shot out from under me in Somalia. Being left to guard a gate at 20 with several hundred rioters heaving rocks and other things more offensive than rocks, as well as occasional bursts of AK fire, at you can tend to polarize one's viewpoint. Burying the greatest men I've ever known, the men who had the guts to do more than ramble on internet BBS's, makes it a very emotional issue.
This is how much it meant: almost my entire career was under Clinton, who I presonally believe is guilty of treason. No shit, treason. I'll expound if you really care.
So it certainly wasn't loyaly to the president or any official. It was for my country. I live a far better life than even the privldged classes of many other countries (being soundly middle class here in the US) and I felt a responsibility to at least do something to acknowledge that gift. To earn it.
Alot of you people think of your rights like welfare. You're covered simply because your parents fucked and squeezed you out. An entitlement to be given out through no effort of your own. Sit back and let the others do all the work while you enjoy the fruits of their sacrifice.
Smell the glove!!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 09:43:03 [Permalink]
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What you're saying is that your position is not based on reason, but the need to be right. Because if you're wrong, a lot of people died for nothing. Somehow those people that sent you there are wrong in Israel, but they're right in Kosovo, Somalia, Iraq and Panama. Somehow those people who don't give a rat's ass about you when you get hurt, give a shit whether you kill and die to make sure that the wealthy get wealthier. Can you help me get this straight?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/23/2002 09:46:05 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 10:10:14 [Permalink]
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In many cases they did die for nothing. At least someone with no sense of honor or duty would understand. Somalia was nothing but a politcal game played at election time. But I doubt the somalis we fed cared much about that. A soldier in Kosovo saved more lives in a day than you could be roused from behind your computer to even read about.
One medic in N. Iraq saved more children with medical help and food relief in one hour than you could be called on to save in a lifetime.
You can whine about the poor masses, but have YOU ever gone there and handed out drinking water and malaria pills? You're talking out your ass again.
Some people do something, others just bitch about the ones that do.
America has it's issues, but having been all over the planet for the past decade, I can tell you it's still the best nation around. It's good enough for people to offer their lives in it's interests. Just not self-important cowards who hide behind rights they have never earned.
We were soldiers. We followed our orders and did our jobs.
In all those other places like Kosovo, Somalia, etc, there was a humanitarian reason to go. We saved lives, regardless of the political excuses for being there.
Supporting Israel is like supporting Milosivic instead of toppling him and dragging him in for war crimes. That is why I think its wrong. Our support of Israel only furthers the oppression of a people.
Soldiers don't live and die for a president or his policies. Maybe because of them, but not for them. We have a duty, an honor. Something that can't be explained to those that lack it.
I was raised to love this country. I know we're not always right, but the IDEA of America is what I fought for. It's what my comrades died for. Seeing the world first hand only reinforced that love for the country that gave (and still gives) me the life I have. I served to honor those that sacrificed before me to bestow those rights I enjoy, upon me. I honor their memory, thier sacrifice. People who weren't afraid of a hard life and even death to protect what others enjoy just sitting on thier ass. People who were not cowards.
Smell the glove!!!!
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 10:21:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ah, so we do agree. And YES, that's far too much to spend on defense. Shamefully wasteful from the exposes I've seen.
--Just how many have you seen? I mean beyond CNN? How many have you been any more involved with than bitching on a BBS?
Name a single military action undertaken by the US in the past decade that was strictly military and not in support of some larger humanitarian effort. Name one.
Smell the glove!!!!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 20:18:20 [Permalink]
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Gee. I thought this thread was going to be about skeptics and open mindedness. I thought I might enjoy this thread. Oh well....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 22:41:21 [Permalink]
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Back off Kil. Sollylama's about as dead on the money as a man can be.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 03:51:30 [Permalink]
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Yeah, war is peace, ignorance is wisdom, slavery is freedom.... I think Solly just about has everything covered.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2002 : 04:26:14 [Permalink]
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Your remark, "I WAS FOREIGN POLICY" was priceless, but you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. We would all benefit I'm sure from your knowledge of other countries, but just because you've been there doesn't mean you know anything. I was thirty years old once and knew it all myself, so I know where you're coming from.
I'm sure the soldiers who went to these places thought they were engaged in humanitarian efforts, and in many cases did help people. However, in Somalia, while the U.S. certainly can't be blamed for all of Somalia's problems, the U.S. certainly did more harm than good, and Operation Restore Hope certainly did more harm than good. No one in Washington ever gave a shit about the Kurds, and certainly all U.S. foreign policy has been detrimental to the Kurds, both in supporting Turkish repression, and Iraqi repression - Iraqi repression before AND after the Gulf War.
Again, I applaud individual soldiers, but overall, U.S. foreign policy has been incredibly destructive.
quote:
--Just how many have you seen? I mean beyond CNN? How many have you been any more involved with than bitching on a BBS?
Name a single military action undertaken by the US in the past decade that was strictly military and not in support of some larger humanitarian effort. Name one.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/24/2002 10:49:30 |
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