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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2002 : 04:17:22
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Oy vey! This is bad. from: http://www.westword.com/issues/2002-10-17/feature.html/1/index.html
see the third page for: quote:
Jack's half of the B.C. Tours group proceeded in a quiet, orderly fashion to the zebras.
"Why do you think the zebra has stripes?" Jack asked.
A boy wearing a Federal Bureau of Investigation, Knoxville, hat ventured a guess: "Camouflage?"
No, not camouflage. Patiently, Jack explained again how before the fall of Eden, there was no death, hence no predators, hence no need for camouflage. "Let's try again. Why does the zebra have stripes?"
The kids defaulted to their standard answer: "Jesus!"
"Kind of," said Jack. "But not quite. The answer is really that the zebra has stripes to glorify God. God made all the animals for his own glory. They're for our enjoyment, but they're for His glory."
Bull! If camaflage has nothing to do with it, then why does it work on the predators, as compared with those animals with no such camaflage? Coincidence?! Even AIG isn't that stupid! They'd at least say it was camaflage to help the animal get along in this "sin-cursed" world. It's a well-known optical illusion that works for their environment.
Note the guys' answer, though. "for gods' glory". That can be applied to anything, using his reasoning. How in hell can one learn about natural animal-relations with this attitude?!
and from page 4:quote:
Jack had one final, important point to make. He set it up by quoting God in the Book of Job:40:15-18:
Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, and his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar, the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, his ribs like bars of iron.
The word "behemoth" is footnoted in most Bibles as "a large animal, exact identity unknown." Many biblical scholars point to the hippo as a likely candidate. But Jack has another theory. "Look at that hippo's tail," he said. "Does that look like a tail the size of cedar tree?"
"No!"
"Well, what other animal can you think of that is massive and super-strong that has bones like beams of bronze and a tail the size of a cedar tree and who eats grass, who God made along with man?"
"Dinosaurs!"
"That's right," Jack said. "There's the evidence, right there."
That idiot! If those fools would only read on in Job: quote:
19. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21. He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
Given the rest of the context, it is obvious that it can't be a dinosaur, because they couldn't take "covert" in the reed, which grows in rather shallow water, or be "compassed" about by the "willows" of the brook. A dino would be just too damn big.
By the way, the thing about the tail does NOT mention size, just that he moved his tail like a cedar. (from 1611 KJV Bible)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2002 : 10:42:22 [Permalink]
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A friend of mine, over at the California Academy of Sciences, Dr John Dillon is really into the history of science. If you're not quick enough to stop him he has a slide lecture he gives on Medieval Bestiaries. Books of animals that tell common knowledge (like geese come from barnacles) and god's metaphoric meaning for critters. It is his contention that the natural sciences did not actually exist before the nineteenth century. Before that very recent time there was no observation being done.
It seems completely obvious now that if you want to know how an animal behaves you study it behaving. But before the nineteenth century what you would do is rely completely on authority. The authority, however, was the church. The church had (has) an antithetical view of this world from the one science has. This world is a trial, a veil of tears, something to be suffered through while waiting for your real life to come. In the study of the natural world, as in so many other things, the church had no concern for the truth. Or more accurately, no concern for the facts. They felt that they were the purveyors of "truth". Rather than tell how animals actually behaved they presented the natural world as reinforcement for their moral and propagandic teachings.
With the natural sciences only about 160 years old we shouldn't be surprised that this ridiculous medieval nonsense pops up every now and again. We shouldn't put up with it, but we shouldn't be surprised.
That's one of the reason that xians can't (not don't or won't, they simply can't) understand natural selection. NS was figured out through observation, and confirmed through observation and testing. Xians are of the opinion that humans WITH OUR FINITE MINDS not only don't know anything but are incapable of learning anything new. So when you present them with your observations and the conclusions that you have drawn from them they are at a loss. To them all observations are meaningless and you aren't capable of reaching a conclusion. They must resort to authority--in this case an authority from power not from study of what ever you're talking about.
You can see this same thing happening in another thread where I presented a scene from Acts of the Apostles and showed how it was the same scene, dialogue and all, from a Greek play that was more than 500 years older than the NT. It's an easy observation to make, requires less than half an hour of reading. The conclusion that the newer is a copy of the identical older piece is the obvious conclusion to draw. Yet this is completely beyond the scope of the Christian I'm dealing with. Observations are completely meaningless to him and the idea that you can reach an independent conclusion based on your own observations he considers crazy. Conclusions can only be based on authority to his way of thinking.
As for 'what actual animal' behemoth was, you shouldn't worry. Medieval books rarely concerned themselves with the question of if animals actually existed. The bible has behemoth, leviathan and unicorns in it. These beasts are all travelers' tales. They might be a retelling of a retelling of a retelling of a bad observation of a real animal at night after a couple of bottles of wine. Or they more probably were just made up like the people "to the Far East" who all had one eye, one arm and one leg, and spent their days hopping around. The insistence that these animals are based on actual ones is only the vestal psychological need that the "authority"-the bible-actually is the authority. It isn't.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2002 : 19:19:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Why do you think the zebra has stripes?" Jack asked.
A boy wearing a Federal Bureau of Investigation, Knoxville, hat ventured a guess: "Camouflage?"
quote:
The answer is really that the zebra has stripes to glorify God.
And I thought it was a horse in it's pajamas....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 03:48:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
You can see this same thing happening in another thread where I presented a scene from Acts of the Apostles and showed how it was the same scene, dialogue and all, from a Greek play that was more than 500 years older than the NT. It's an easy observation to make, requires less than half an hour of reading. The conclusion that the newer is a copy of the identical older piece is the obvious conclusion to draw.
Slater, would you post a link to this please?
I'd love tom read it and the religion bb's are huge, take me too long to find it!
Your cooperation would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Welshdean
I believe in nothing; only my scepticism kept me from being an atheist.
Edited by - WELSHDEAN on 10/31/2002 03:49:11 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 06:45:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater, would you post a link to this please?
Start here
Not quite halfway down the page, look for Slater's post that begins:
quote:
… "Orthodox Jewish Theology" was,among other things,extremely monotheistic
Monotheism, meaning one god. One, singular, as in Yahweh.
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 07:53:39 [Permalink]
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Thanks TD,
respect is due!!
I believe in nothing; only my scepticism kept me from being an atheist.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 09:21:15 [Permalink]
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http://www.bartleby.com/8/8/
Here's a nice translation of the entire play. It's not what I would call "light reading" but it is one of the classics.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2002 : 22:22:24 [Permalink]
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| File some of this under "That is just not right." Someone needs a case of Grow up...I feel sorry for the kid. The bible mentions that BS where, exactly? Please, do tell us... |
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2002 : 04:35:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
That idiot! If those fools would only read on in Job
They read only what and as much as they feel neccessary to placate their own doubts, and call it proof because of its source. They accuse skeptics, and advocates of an errant bible of being close minded, and taking the scripture out of context, when I seriously doubt that most have even read the book. Slater was 100% correct. Christians learn only from authority, and choose to hide themselves from simple observation, and deductive reasoning. Education is through authority, history is from myth, and science is superstition.
And, divine being help us, now we're going to have to put up with the appointment of G.W.'s "right thinking" judges ruling that we must teach this trash to our children in the public school system. Long live our theocratic plutacracy! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Johnson
New Member
USA
1 Post |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 10:34:51 [Permalink]
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My favorite part of the article was this:
" . . . Jack led tours where he proclaimed loudly that Cortez was doing God's work by conquering and dismantling the Aztec culture, because the Aztecs worshiped false gods and practiced human sacrifice. "I suppose that wasn't very politically correct of me," he says. "But we're B.C., not P.C."
Kinda scary, isn't it, that even today some Christians can think it's okay to "conquer and dismantle" people (they may call it "culture; what they mean is "people"--you kill the people, the culture dies) for "worshipping false gods" and practicing human sacrifice. Better to kill all the Aztecs, I guess, than to allow the Aztecs to continue sacrificing a virgin now and then.
Sheesh.
Cheers,
Johnson |
"It's called faith. Faith is believing something that no one in his right mind would believe." Archie Bunker |
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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:44:46 [Permalink]
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Wow... So many confused people... so little time..... what shall I do?
well I'm busy now so i'll get back to this topic |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:50:46 [Permalink]
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| If you need suggestions for what you should do you could try reading a few books on the natural sciences. Your Bronze Age superstitions are an embarrassment to you. Gould's The Structure of Evolutionary Theory isn't a quick read but it would be worth your time. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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