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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 01/08/2003 : 16:41:42
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Many psychiatrists and psychologist practice their healing trade without a conclusive answer to this important question. Some have concluded "no", others say "yes". What do you think and why? A friend with a post graduate degree doing further studies in this area got me thinking about this, so it is not my original idea by any means.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 01/08/2003 20:29:48
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 17:14:06 [Permalink]
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| What is a "spirit," where is it located, and what does it do that the brain can't? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 18:19:15 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by PhDreamer
What is a "spirit," where is it located, and what does it do that the brain can't?
I believe that is the point in question. Any thoughts?
I'll give a few of my own to get the ball rolling.
Many people say they can feel when someone is mad at them or when someone loves them. This is without any physical contact.
Another thought. Your mind acts as a computer in the sense of figuring things out and debating certain issues. What part of you does the actual decision making? Some even claim to make decisions by a gut feeling without using rational thought to guide them.
Some Pyschiatrists don't believe people have a spirit and treat only mind or body w/ drugs. How do they equate emotions in that picture?
Some folks who have died on operating tables and were consequently revived within minutes, report remembering being outside of their bodies and can recall the conversations of nurses and doctors while they were "dead". How is this possible.
There are many things people do without thinking, some involuntary, some voluntary. If the mind wasn't directly involved, what was? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 19:11:13 [Permalink]
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Chances are...No
My yet to be tested hypothesis:
These "Out of body Experiences" may be attributed to an odd state of conciousness, where the eyes see, but the brain may be unconcious, the brain may then remember these things and believe it was closer than it was. These may explain some out of body experiences.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 19:19:23 [Permalink]
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Since no one has ever seen or measured or even adequately defined what a "spirit" is I think it's more than safe to say that there is no such thing.
Just because a body dies does not mean the brain is dead. This is rather obvious isn't? If the brain were dead then the body might be revived but they would be in what's called a "vegitative state" and not likely to write to Reader's Digest about their amazing experience. There is nothing at all here that indicates a "spirit" exists. Kinda hard without even defining spirit. Seems like people that use the word spirit have difficulty in spelling consciousness.
quote:
There are many things people do without thinking, some involuntary, some voluntary. If the mind wasn't directly involved, what was?
You should reread what you said here. Things people do without thinking but some are at the same time voluntary. Uhhhh.....whatever man. I don't know about the rest of you but when I do something that's voluntary it clearly indicates thought.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 19:42:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
Chances are...No
My yet to be tested hypothesis:
These "Out of body Experiences" may be attributed to an odd state of conciousness, where the eyes see, but the brain may be unconcious, the brain may then remember these things and believe it was closer than it was. These may explain some out of body experiences.
Perhaps in your test you can check on the documented stories of such happenings and let us know what you find.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 20:03:28 [Permalink]
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"Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind"
(where else?)
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/index.html
Further info:
http://skepdic.com/obe.html
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
| Edited by - Randy on 01/08/2003 20:06:32 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 20:27:30 [Permalink]
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Kinda hard without even defining spirit.
A good point. Here is the American Heritage Dictionary definition: "That which is traditionally believed to be the vital principle or animating force within living beings."
quote:
There are many things people do without thinking, some involuntary, some voluntary. If the mind wasn't directly involved, what was?
You should reread what you said here. Things people do without thinking but some are at the same time voluntary. Uhhhh.....whatever man. I don't know about the rest of you but when I do something that's voluntary it clearly indicates thought.
I should clarify, of course. A "possible" example of voluntary action without thinking: Mom grabs your hand before you touch the stove as a little tot. (Almost reflex). Army soldier jumps on a grenade to save his buddies.
Let's jump in where people live every day. A person may know and understand that sex with a stranger is very dangerous because of various threats. They may even have a fiance or wife, yet many, "in weak moments" succumb to "something" and do it anyway, contrary to their own thoughts and logic. Where does that choice come from? This leads into the ideas that all of you hold dear, beliefs. Some beliefs seem to defy logic. One motivater is called "faith", another is "fear". Then there's "love", and even "hate". Each of these (and probably others) can cause people to do things that go beyond reason or mental process, many times defying people's mental beliefs and even their "instinct to survive" (and what is that?).
At the most basic level it's even simpler to think about. You get up in the morning and have choices to make, things to do, people to see. You have to make decisions. Every day this happens to every thinking person on the planet. What do you do and why? All mental? All physical? Combination? Or is there more to it? The whole idea of having a "will" to do something. What is that? Just mental?
I hope the few of you who read this will consider that this is not an elementary, back burner issue of life. We are far more complex beings than I think we realize.
Did you ever "close up" to anybody, like somebody that hurt you? And that hurt you had, was it in your mind? That closed feeling, was that your mind?
When you "opened up" to someone, was that just your mind you opened? Maybe you shared your thoughts with a professor or teacher or friend, but you kept "something" just for a person you loved. Was it just thoughts or something physical you kept? Think about it. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/08/2003 20:33:09 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 20:48:09 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Randy
"Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind"
(where else?)
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/index.htm
Dig deeper, Randy. Aren't we looking for bona fide dead people who came back. Even an unconscious or sleeping person can't hear or see what is going on around him, much less a dead one. The eyes aren't seeing and the brain's not interpreting what is being seen, yet exact recollection of events of what happened in the operating room is known by this dead person upon reviving.
As per your link, it seems more like hallucination that they are talking about, not reality. But, if they are saying that the mind is capable of really seeing outside the body (no eyes), then what are they trying to say? I'm not sure. Even that is getting into the spiritual. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 21:56:17 [Permalink]
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",..without a conclusive answer to this important question." Why exactly is this an 'important question?'
Do beleive that there is a thing called "team spirit," but it isn't an entity, more of an attitude, or mind set. Usually when we talk of a persons 'spirit,' we are really referring to their determination or will. Know of a thing, called 'brain dead.' The body 'lives' and the organs continue to function, except for the organ we call the brain. What exactly is the difference between a brain and a mind? Has there been a 'spirit death' other than perhaps "losing the will to live?" Dunno if there is such a thing as a 'spirit' or 'soul,' that continues to 'live' after it's host, the body, dies. Would all living things have one, and why? How would one go about proving it's existence? IMO we'll "know" soon enough, anyways.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 22:09:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Many people say they can feel when someone is mad at them or when someone loves them. This is without any physical contact.
Which means?
quote:
Another thought. Your mind acts as a computer in the sense of figuring things out and debating certain issues. What part of you does the actual decision making? Some even claim to make decisions by a gut feeling without using rational thought to guide them.
All perfectly consistent with a dual-brain model.
quote:
Some Pyschiatrists don't believe people have a spirit and treat only mind or body w/ drugs. How do they equate emotions in that picture?
Emotions are quite assuredly the output of the reptilian brain, somewhere in the limbic system.
quote:
Some folks who have died on operating tables and were consequently revived within minutes, report remembering being outside of their bodies and can recall the conversations of nurses and doctors while they were "dead". How is this possible.
In every case I've encountered, the issue of time has been inconclusive at best. There's no way to tell when the "observation" took place that the patient is recalling.
quote:
There are many things people do without thinking, some involuntary, some voluntary. If the mind wasn't directly involved, what was?
There's quite a bit of literature on the brain and nervous system. Read up.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 23:11:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
",..without a conclusive answer to this important question." Why exactly is this an 'important question?'
Do beleive that there is a thing called "team spirit," but it isn't an entity, more of an attitude, or mind set. Usually when we talk of a persons 'spirit,' we are really referring to their determination or will. Know of a thing, called 'brain dead.' The body 'lives' and the organs continue to function, except for the organ we call the brain. What exactly is the difference between a brain and a mind? Has there been a 'spirit death' other than perhaps "losing the will to live?" Dunno if there is such a thing as a 'spirit' or 'soul,' that continues to 'live' after it's host, the body, dies. Would all living things have one, and why? How would one go about proving it's existence? IMO we'll "know" soon enough, anyways.
Some interesting points. It's important because in the fields of "mind" medicine the attitudes about it are so varied that there are countless methods of treatment being used. In medical arts, there are some procedures and medicine that are without question very helpful to the person being treated. In the mind arts, it's a different story. The field is at a primitive stage, much like medicine was in the time of blood letting. Harm is happening to some patients who think they are being helped. There is much to gain and much to lose. If we stay at this primitive level of study, it probably won't improve for quite a while. By discussing this subject maybe we'll stimulate some thought into unknown or misunderstood parts of humanity. Then again...maybe not. Couldn't hurt. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 23:17:28 [Permalink]
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"Mind arts"??
Repeat after me, Doomar: psychology
It's a science, really. I have a degree in it and everything. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 23:18:33 [Permalink]
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phdreamer says
"Dual brain" "reptilian"?
Is this the twilight zone?
Doomar to dreamer, come in, over...
Captain. . . I think he's gone.
His second mind is missing. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 23:20:29 [Permalink]
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Repeat after me, Doomar: psychology
It's a science, really. I have a degree in it and everything.
Ahh, I see you've been....brainwashed already. LOL |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 03:24:32 [Permalink]
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Is a spirit supposed to be same thing as or something similar to a soul? Is it something different? What is it supposed to do that our brain does not? How is it supposed to work? The definitions of spirit that I have seen either describe stuff, that we now consider to be functions of the brain or don't describe anything at all.
The vital principle or animating force within living beings for example appears to indicate that animals and plants would have spirits, while those examples Doomar has mentioned appear to describe something humans have only. Even worse is that we don't actually need to assume the existance of some vital principle anymore as we have gotten quite good at explaning that stuff by biochemestry.
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To any insufficiently advanced person technolgy becomes indistinguishable from magic. |
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