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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  09:59:53  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
Can someone please give me a skeptic point of view to this incident?


p.s. besides the Stormville flyer's theory.

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  12:36:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hi hvigp and welcome to SFN!

Unfortunatly, you have forgotten to provide a link, so I really can't comment beyond stating that there is no empirical for visits from creatures beyond our solar system. There's lots of fraud, though.

I lived for some 16 years in VT. Pretty country up your way.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  15:43:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
Hudson Valley Linkhttp:
www.ufoevidence.org/topics/HudsonValley.htm


I find this all the more baffaling. That this event is not well know.

I am not pro UFO or anti UFO -

I just want to know what the heck it was that I saw.



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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  15:46:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
forgot my quote: "We mock what we dont understand"
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  16:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Are there any other links? The site you gave is an activist site for people already convinced UFO's are aliens from outer space. I would look for answers from a more objective source.

The thing is, people see things and don't know what they are. I don't see any reason for immediately leaping towards big eyed monsters. Just say "I don't know what I saw" and at least you can go to bed an honest man every day.

@tomic

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  19:13:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

Are there any other links? The site you gave is an activist site for people already convinced UFO's are aliens from outer space. I would look for answers from a more objective source.

The thing is, people see things and don't know what they are. I don't see any reason for immediately leaping towards big eyed monsters. Just say "I don't know what I saw" and at least you can go to bed an honest man every day.

@tomic

I did a google search with "Hudson valley ufo debunk" as key words, but none of the links on the first three pages led to any good neutral page.
When I removed "debunk" I finally found a short article about a videotape called "UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings". This is part of the article:
( http://video.mainseek.com/3259R20P1532_UFO-File-The-Hudson-Valley-Sightings.html )
quote:
Although some of the UFO footage included in this documentary could possibly be classified as footage of UNIDENTIFIED Flying Objects, many of the Objects are easily identified as aircraft. In one of the videos, the background music pauses long enough for the viewer to hear the whine of what is obviously a jet engine, in another, you can see the pilot turning on the airplane's landing lights, illuminating part of the fuselage. In the worst of these UFO video clips, one can easily make out a brightly lit aircraft rudder with the Virgin Atlantic Airways logo on it, probably on approach to Newark airport.

And the conclusion:
quote:
The video is interesting only as a good example of either a poorly produced hoax or the earnest work of some very gullible people.


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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  20:11:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Agreein' with @tomic, here. Not enough independant info.

I myself have seen a UFO. It was a light in the sky that seemed to move erraticly, that I couldn't identify. I still don't know for sure what it was. But there are a lot of better explanations than an alien spaceship. If nothing else, Occam's Razor tells me that one of these others is correct.

Now, is it even possible that we've been visited? Sure it is. The universe is vast beyond our poor imaginations. In such a universe, the possibilities are equally vast. However, there's got to be assigned a probility rating. Alien visits are improbable to the point that even Zaphod Beeblebrox would sneer at them.

Dr. Carl Sagan once said (paraphrased a bit), "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence." That is, in a nutshell, a skeptic's rule of thumb. The UFO business has become all but laughable. It seems that there are 'sightings' almost every day (not to mention crop circles and other, practical jokes). One would think that, what with the seeming popularity of our planet, much better evidence would be forthcoming, and on a pretty regular basis. But thus far, it ain't. The best I've found are some fairly, not to say, downright obvious, hokey photographs and lots of ancedotes, none of which can be relied upon (ancedotes are stories, not evidence).

Truth to tell, I have reached the point where, when the alien visitors are spoken of as fact, I ask, politly, "Would you please produce one."

But then, I'm a septic skeptic.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:16:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
OK guys let me do some research for a legit sight.

Please Listen To This.


I am not a freak, i DO NOT belive there are little green people doing anal probes. I have inhaled however.

The Hudson Valley UFO was real. I saw it along with 10 other people at the same time in the late afternoon. Gun to my head I say there were not aliens on this thing. BUT take every word I say right now as fact - It was Huge - absolutaley tremendous. It was right above the tree line - not 20,000 feet not 10,000 feet -not 1000 feet - It was 300 feet. I could literally hit it with a sling shot. It was hovering -nearly stationary for 5 minutes. Guys I dont know how else to explain it. There was a time about 5 years ago when I would bring this up at a party -- I quickly learned that people really thought I was a wierdo - I got excited when I talked about it I guess and they saw it. And like I am trying to explain here I DO NOT think it was aliens - but as soon as you say UFO people automatically think you are talking about anal probes. I ask them and I ask you what does UFO stand for.

I am sure you guys have done much more research into this field than I have. I just got to know what this thing was. If it was ours it defied gravity.

Please look more into this - It has to be by far and way the most documented evidence regarding UFO sightings - I am really shocked that UFO skeptics have never heard of this- That grabs my attention that much more.

Last do a search "Indian Point UFO" Then pretend that the 2 guys on watch that night were telling the truth along with my description- and let me know what you think.

thanks this is a great forum I just hope I don't have a couple of beers new years eve and start talkin about what I saw. It sure is a party killer topic.


I will try and find some less bias links

thx
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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:29:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Agreein' with @tomic, here. Not enough independant info.

I myself have seen a UFO. It was a light in the sky that seemed to move erraticly, that I couldn't identify. I still don't know for sure what it was. But there are a lot of better explanations than an alien spaceship. If nothing else, Occam's Razor tells me that one of these others is correct.

Now, is it even possible that we've been visited? Sure it is. The universe is vast beyond our poor imaginations. In such a universe, the possibilities are equally vast. However, there's got to be assigned a probility rating. Alien visits are improbable to the point that even Zaphod Beeblebrox would sneer at them.

Dr. Carl Sagan once said (paraphrased a bit), "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence." That is, in a nutshell, a skeptic's rule of thumb. The UFO business has become all but laughable. It seems that there are 'sightings' almost every day (not to mention crop circles and other, practical jokes). One would think that, what with the seeming popularity of our planet, much better evidence would be forthcoming, and on a pretty regular basis. But thus far, it ain't. The best I've found are some fairly, not to say, downright obvious, hokey photographs and lots of ancedotes, none of which can be relied upon (ancedotes are stories, not evidence).

Truth to tell, I have reached the point where, when the alien visitors are spoken of as fact, I ask, politly, "Would you please produce one."

But then, I'm a septic skeptic.



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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:33:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message


=================================================================

Incident at Indian Point
by Vicki Cooper

The threat of UFOs compromising reactor security, as
if the nuclear industry didn't have enough to deal with
already, became a very real concern in 1984. Although of-
ficials won't admit it, several researchers have information That
New York 's Indian Point Reactor complex endured such
a UFO problem during the long siege of sightings that
happened throughout the state's Hudson Valley area.
The portrayal of the event in this article is based primarily on
the disclosures of unnamed sources.

The summer of 1984 was a troublesome season for
authorities at the Indian Point nuclear reactor complex in
Buchanan, New York. Two UFO appearances, one of which was verified
by Carl Patrick, director of nuclear information for the New York
Power Authority (NYPA), and later documented by the press and the
1987 book Night Siege, apparently put the normally tight security
of the plant to a severe test. The first event entailed the brief
flyover of a huge craft, witnessed by three security policemen on
June 14. That was followed ten days later by a UFO incident of
unprecedented impact. It was one of hundreds of UFO sightings in
the Hudson Valley, but one the nuclear workers won't soon forget.
"Here comes that UFO again! " an Indian Point security guard is
said to have yelled on the night of July 24, 1984, alerting other
security personnel by way of the plant's internal
communications system. A UFO, variously described as looking like
"an ice cream cone " and "boomerang, " had lazily drifted over
to Reactor #3-the only active reactor at the time-lingering about
300 feet above the domed construction for some ten minutes, sending
security officials into an uproar. Now, six years later, the
principal UFO researcher on the case admits that many aspects of
the event remain confusing and undisclosed. And although he's still
receiving information, Philip Imbrogno calls his own lengthy
investigation "stagnant."
"Every time new information comes up or I get a lead on
something, I get very reluctant to deal with it again," said
Imbrogno, who heads the science department at the Windward School
in White Plains, New York. "The entire case has caused me quite a
bit of pressure . . . The event would indicate that whatever
appeared over there, our state-of-the-art technology in defense was
unable to deal with it. " He suggests that from what his sources
have said, a military aspect came into play. The Indian Point UFO
represented an intolerable security breach.
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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:38:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I sure hope 5000 people were not on Peyote at the same time.




1982-1986 A giant 'boomerang' in the Hudson Valley

Type: Lights in the sky, multiple witnesses
Place: Eastern New York State, western Connecticut
Date: December 31, 1982 - July 10, 1986

The sighting began in Putnam County, New York, and by the time the series was complete had been seen by a claimed 5000 witnesses. The area in which the UFO appeared stretched from Peeskill and Ossining, New York, in the west to New Haven, Connecticut, in the east, and from Brookfield, Connecticut in the north to Westport in the south.

The objects as reported were gigantic triangular of boomerang shaped, and usually silent, although a hum was sometimes heard and, very occasionally, engine noises. An overwhelming percentage of witnesses estimated their size as at least 300 ft in breadth. Speeds generally were said to be 'much slower that a plane'. All sightings were at night: the UFOs showed between five and 15 lights or various colors, which often turned on and off, sometimes changing color, and were sometimes bright enough to illuminate the ground below. The sightings came in distinct clusters at certain times, the most significant being in March 1983 and June 1984. The most widely reported event occurred on July 12th as the object traversed five counties. On July 24th, the UFO apparently hovered over the Indian Point nuclear reactor for some time.

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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:46:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
Wasn't Dr Hyneck considered to be not a wack job??





Publisher Review: Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings


The Hudson Valley is just minutes away from New York Citybut something strange has been taking place there. You can learn about it in Night Siege by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Philip J. Imbrogno, and Bob Pratt.

Curiously, the agencies responsible for protecting uslaw enforcement agencies, state and federal governments, and the militaryare not saying anything . . . or are deliberately ignoring it. Why?

A large, boomerang-shaped object hovering over the area was seen by hundreds of people. It moved slowly and was reported as moving silently or with a humming sound. Yet, the Federal Aviation Administration, which monitors the air lanes where the object was sighted, persists in denying its existence. Why?

Nothing has been heard from the nation's scientists. Why?

Even though the U.S. has one of the most extensive mass communications systems in the world, news of this astounding happening was carried on only one network. Why?


Llewellyn is proud to present Night Siege, the most complete examination of this strange, continuing situation. The truth is not just "out there," it is also in this book. If you want to know what is going on in the most unusual UFO sightings ever, you must get Night Siege.

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hvigp
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  21:52:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hvigp a Private Message
YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT FOR THE MOST PART - IT SEEMS LIKE ALL THE SEARCHS TURN UP WEB SITE'S LIKE UFOTHIS UFOTHAT ANALPROBORG


but the media never covered it in the first place???


If anyone covers UFO on the skeptic side If you want a CHALLENGE look in to this case. Trust me it will be your greatest accomplishment.

thx
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  23:15:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
hvigp wrote:
quote:
The Hudson Valley UFO was real.
The biggest problem is that there was no single "Hudson Valley UFO." There were, instead, "over 7,000 documented and investigated sightings of a boomerang-shaped craft or crafts moving silently through the sky over New York and Connecticut between 1982 and 1995." No, 5,000 people weren't on peyote all at the same time, because the very article you quote discusses 5,000 reports over a period of three-and-a-half years.
quote:
I saw it along with 10 other people at the same time in the late afternoon.
From one of the quoted articles: "All sightings were at night..." I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you didn't see a UFO. It just seems clear that you saw something which is not consistent with the other reports. On what date did you see the thing?
quote:
Gun to my head I say there were not aliens on this thing. BUT take every word I say right now as fact - It was Huge - absolutaley tremendous. It was right above the tree line - not 20,000 feet not 10,000 feet -not 1000 feet - It was 300 feet. I could literally hit it with a sling shot. It was hovering -nearly stationary for 5 minutes. Guys I dont know how else to explain it.
Human depth perception is a fantastic thing, but also quirky. The farther an object is away from us, the worse it works. Having two eyes lets us triangulate on objects, but it doesn't work past 10 feet or so. After that, we need other clues to determine distance, like already knowing the size of the object we're looking at.

By the way, I drive near a large airport every day. On a clear night, it's really cool to see the incoming planes lined up in the air. Perhaps it's just my bad eyes, but I can't tell the difference between a plane five miles away, and one eight miles away, until they dip down low for landing. Their headlights don't betray enough of a size difference for me to tell which one is in front. Leads to some really spooky moments every once in a while, as a plane I thought was near the end of the line suddenly drops down to land - the feeling I get is "holy crap, that one's gonna crash!" Other times, I can wait for an eternity for one of the planes to make its approach, only to realize that a star just happened to be in the right spot to look like it was part of the line-up.
quote:
There was a time about 5 years ago when I would bring this up at a party -- I quickly learned that people really thought I was a wierdo - I got excited when I talked about it I guess and they saw it. And like I am trying to explain here I DO NOT think it was aliens - but as soon as you say UFO people automatically think you are talking about anal probes. I ask them and I ask you what does UFO stand for.
I'm quite willing to let UFO's remain unidentified. As you know, "unidentified" doesn't mean "little green men."

And so, I'm wondering what you hope to learn here. If it's an identification of what you saw, I believe you're going to be out of luck, since we're talking about something which apparently stopped happening over eight years ago. I won't speak for anyone else here, I simply doubt that anyone here has new data, or old data which the folks at UFO Evidence would have to be deliberately suppressing. In fact, I doubt that anyone anywhere has any such data - anything "new" which comes up over these sightings is likely to be nothing more than a reinterpretation of old anecdotes.

If, on the other hand, you're just looking for the "skeptical viewpoint," in most cases (again, I'm not speaking for anyone else here), it'll probably be "don't know what it was," followed by a zillion questions about how sure you are about your own perception of events.
quote:
...If it was ours it defied gravity.
That's another cool thing about watching the planes in the landing pattern: they appear to just hang in mid-air, until they get really close to the airport. At that point, changes in altitude start registering to the observer, miles away. How far back did you need to crane your neck to see what you saw?
quote:
Please look more into this - It has to be by far and way the most documented evidence regarding UFO sightings...
I'm not sure that I've read any "evidence" at all so far. Not in the site you linked to, and not in the articles you quoted. A famous quote goes, "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." Skepticism often demands a higher burden-of-proof than your average courtroom, in which anecdotes are evidence.
quote:
... - I am really shocked that UFO skeptics have never heard of this- That grabs my attention that much more.
I, for one, haven't really spent a lot of time being skeptical about UFO sightings. That I (for example) haven't heard of this one shouldn't surprise anybody. It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just replying to you because - at first blush - I feel like there are things which need to be pointed out, questions which need to be asked, and pertinent information which needs to be shared.
quote:
Last do a search "Indian Point UFO" Then pretend that the 2 guys on watch that night were telling the truth along with my description- and let me know what you think.
I'd have to first ask what makes you think that what was seen over the reactor at night was the same thing you saw in the afternoon.

Overall, there were 7,000-someodd sightings over a 13-year period. Reading over some of the descriptions, I find wildly varying accounts, and the only thing they appear to have in common is the geographical area in which they were seen. There is no single "Hudson Valley UFO," but instead there are thousands of them. The vast array of shapes, colors, and behaviours reported are all indicative of completely independent events. As such, each different "type" of event would have to be investigated independently of the others until there is evidence that they are linked by more than geography. The sources I've seen so far are putting the cart before the horse by dumping most of them into a "Hudson Valley" group and reporting disparate events as if they had something in common.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2003 :  05:29:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hmm. I was living in East Fairfield, VT in '82. I don't recall hearing of anything that would cause such excitment among our neighbors on the other side of the lake. Perhaps I wasn't paying attention.

My distrust of the media is huge, especally when it concerns itself with such fantastic subjects as Lake Champlain monsters, haunted residences, Republican politics, and UFOs; in short, that which easily hooks overwrought imaginations and sells advertising.

I wasn't there and haven't the faintest idea of what was seen. But, here's another that I saw back around 1950, on the Tennesee corner of Lookout Mountain. It was a dark low-riding cloud, easily identified as a weather anomoly, but to my young eyes and imagination, it could well have been the attack of the Syphilitic Plutonians. My family got a chuckle out of my astonishment. As with many (most?) sightings, this was in the evening; not quite dark. Perhaps it could be something of an explanation for other sightings. Or not.

The results of your search for references is pretty much typical. There might be a blurb in the local media at the time, then the UFO hopefuls adopt it for their own. There will have been exactly zero, honest research into it and exactly zero evidence beyond the ancedotal and/or perhaps a few of the afore-mentioned photos (many examples of this last, that I have seen, are of such wretched quality that you might wonder how such an inept photographer managed to find the shutter button).

A question I must ask is: why would aliens bother? I mean, here they are (or would be) with a technology that allows them to transend time and space, and they are bugging us? They don't seem to be taking anything, or killing or putting the snatch on anyone creditable, so what could they possibly want?

I think that many, perhaps even most, sightings fall into the, "Monkey see, monkey do!" catagory. Someone sees something, talks about it or gets it into the media, and others start making booshwa claims to steal a little of the glory, if glory it be.

I'd love to witness an actual event involving aliens, as would we all. But I fear it just ain't on.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2003 :  07:20:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
quote:
A UFO, variously described as looking like
"an ice cream cone " and "boomerang"


How can something look like both an ice cream cone and a boomerang? Also, what flavor did they report the ice cream cone was?

The first thing that comes to this skeptic's mind when people talk about UFOs is: military. I imagine our military tests equipment that would be unidentifiable to us and which is classified information. Wouldn't the government then *want* us to believe it's little green men with anal probes, as opposed to knowing what the military actually is doing? Forgive me if that sounds paranoid.

If I'd seen what you saw, I might feel differently, because personal experience makes a powerful mark in our minds. But tragically, I'm literally the only person I know that doesn't have a woo-woo story. I've never seen a UFO, never predicted the future, never been touched by Jesus, etc.

Just some unscientific thoughts from a semi-literate skeptic.
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