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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 01/01/2004 : 17:58:19
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Over in this thread, Hippy4Christ linked us to the 7 Wonders of Mount St. Helens. I'd like to offer critical comment on that article here.
Problems with the article begin in the introduction. The authors, Lloyd and Doris Anderson, present this as fact:quote:
The 7 Wonders, summarized below, are seven geological features resulting from the eruptive activity of the ‘80's and displayed at the MSH Creation Information Center. Because they were formed rapidly they challenge evolutionary thought which assigns long ages to such formations.
"Evolutionary thought" hasn't done any such thing in quite some time. The Andersons would have a person believe that professional geologists are ignorant of volcanos, earthquakes, and the like. This, then, is the primary straw man which the Andersons have chosen to build and argue against: that geologists believe that every formation they find is the result of long-term, gradual processes. Since geologists are often well aware of places of near-constant "catastrophic" geologic change (like Hawaii), assigning such beliefs to them seems to me to be absurd.
The introduction ends:quote:
We call them “wonders” because of the awe they produce. In fact, it is our persuasion that these wonders are a message from God to remind man of the speed in which He created the world.
The MSH eruption (MSH is the abbreviation the Andersons use) was, indeed, an awesome event. Even to a non-religious person such as myself. To claim that this awesome event is a "message from God," however, makes it necessary that God personally and purposefully made MSH erupt at that point in time, in exactly the way it did. The same idea can be applied to any seeming "natural disaster," meaning that God is awfully busy screwing things up for us poor mortals. If I understand doctrine well enough, I believe that plenty of self-identified Christians would be rather confused by this idea.
But that's opinion. Let's get back to facts...
1. Mountain rearranged beyond recognition in nine hours. A discussion of the major changes in the area due to MSH's initial eruption. The Andersons claimquote:
For 150 years geological evolution minimized the role of catastrophic events. Yet the enormous geological change produced by this nine-hour eruption of a minor volcano would take a million years of gradual change.
This is little but the primary straw man, restated. That 230 square miles of forest were devastated in 8 minutes is of little consequence. 230 square miles is only 0.00012% of the Earth's surface. Compared to some other events in the past, MSH was insignificantly small.
2. Canyons formed in five months. The idea that two canyons, in less than five months, "cut through 100' of solid rock" requires evidenciary support which the Andersons fail to provide. Nor do they tell us what kind of rock was allegedly cut. By continuing on without such information, and comparing MSH to the Grand Canyon, the Andersons tell us that they think that geologists think that all "rock" is identical in terms of erosion rates. (This relates to the experiment I asked Hippy to do in that other thread.) The last sentence in the section,
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Edited by - Dave W. on 01/01/2004 20:57:03
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 20:20:39 [Permalink]
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Fascinating rebuttal, Dave.
I've hiked at Mt. St. Helens, and it's indeed a wondrous place. It's especially heartening to see nature slowly returning to the devastated areas. (If anyone is in the Washington State area, I highly recommend a visit).
Considering at least 50 people were killed--not to mention scores of animals--I wonder what kind of God would choose to send a message in that way. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2004 : 21:12:26 [Permalink]
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Thanks, Renae. I remember back in '81 or '82, a friend of mine got a little bottle of MSH ash. Just tilting the vial this way and that, I found the ash to be very interesting stuff. More fine, I think, than anything else I'd encountered by that point in time (early high school). Nature in general is quite fascinating, even without attributing it to a deity.quote:
Considering at least 50 people were killed--not to mention scores of animals...
50 people? I was wondering about that last night and today, but didn't bother looking for the body count, since it wasn't a key part of my criticism. Ah, 57 people were killed.quote:
...I wonder what kind of God would choose to send a message in that way.
Obviously, the same kind which just recently killed at least 25,000 unsuspecting people. At least, one gets the impression that that's what the Andersons probably think. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:04:56 [Permalink]
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Hey, I was outside at the time and got to see it blow!
Totally crazy day.
quote:
1. Mountain rearranged beyond recognition in nine hours.
...For 150 years geological evolution minimized the role of catastrophic events. Yet the enormous geological change produced by this nine-hour eruption of a minor volcano would take a million years of gradual change.
Just what are they trying to say here? If something happened like this happened once then all change occurs the same way? Does this mean I can point at a glacier and say that because it's slow, all change is like the glacier? No I didn't think so.
quote:
2. Canyons formed in five months.
They left out another cool feature in Washington Strate. Dry Falls carved in far less time at the end of the last ice age.
Bah, I could go on and on.
I hope they break their arms patting themselves on the back.
@tomic |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 18:33:34 [Permalink]
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An overlooked aspect of the Mt. St. Helen eruption is that it became an ecologist's paradise even before the ash was entirely cool. A couple of the articles I read on it expressed amazment at how quickly nature began to reclaim the area. Notably, the first animals to recolonize the still slightly warm ash were spiders. They survived mainly by eating each other, as well as the errent insect, until vegetation became established and more suitable arthropods became readily available.
Interesting, no?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:57:14 [Permalink]
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@tomic wrote:quote:
Just what are they trying to say here? If something happened like this happened once then all change occurs the same way? Does this mean I can point at a glacier and say that because it's slow, all change is like the glacier? No I didn't think so.
Yes, what they're trying to say is that because some of the large changes we've seen happen have happened quickly, then perhaps all large geological changes have happened quickly, and the geologists who claim that the Thus-and-Such formation (take your pick) took millions of years to form are simply ignorant of rapid change. Therefore, the world is only 6,000 years old.
The problems with such a simplistic idea are, as noted, numerous. The Andersons are themselves completely ignorant of the fact that many of the geological processes we see at work right now require a very, very long time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 23:52:05 [Permalink]
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| Dave, your detailed analysis of the Anderson's speculations is interesting. I really haven't read what they say, but have seen what happened at MSH through photos and tv specials. I think the bigger picture might be that if this power of one volcanic eruption was so vast, what would it be like if multiple eruptions occurred, say 10,000 or so all within a day or so? Seems the face of the whole earth would be altered. What if this eruption was just a small one, compared to many in the past. Say they were 10 times larger. What huge changes would occur within a short period of time. The idea of vast changes in landscape being altered within a short period of time is now realized as a real possibility, not because geologists couldn't figure it out, but because they have now seen it happen before there eyes. Speculation always leaves room for doubt. A visual record of before and after pictures removes the doubt. It sure works for the weight loss industry. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 00:15:18 [Permalink]
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No, Doomar, you are quite mistaken about what all of this means.
And I include your comment about the weight-loss industry in that, since before-and-after photos do not tell the whole story about a diet. They don't explain, for example, how the person later on gained back all their weight because the diet was too difficult to follow for months (instead of the weeks shown in the pictures).
Those photos may remove the doubt for you, but they do not for me, or for other people who are similarly informed about the whole story in weight loss. The industry is largely a money-making scam, altogether. The free advice which can be found all over the place - that to lose weight, one needs to reduce total caloric intake and/or increase total caloric expenditures - is ignored by the vast majority of the public because it is too much work. The majority is, instead, willing to pay big bucks for the promises of a quick fix, whether those promises have been shown to be real or not.
Likewise, compared to other processes which shape the globe, MSH was fairly small. Given that, and the factual inaccuracies with the Anderson's claims (spelled out above), and the MSH eruption presents no difficulties nor surprises for modern geologists. People may like to think it was an unusual occurence, in scale or time, but it wasn't.
Your idea that vast changes in a short time were not recognized by geologists of years-gone-by is simply incorrect. "Absolute gradualism" has never, so far as I understand things, been a required premise of geology, despite what you or the Andersons think.
The big problem, it seems to me, with the Andersons' portrayal of events, is that they do not understand that some big changes really do require a long time. That others, like MSH, do not, does not mean that all big changes can be rapid.
What would happen if 10,000 volcanoes all blew in the same day? Nobody can say with absolute certainty, but it is certain that such an event would be detectable within the geologic record. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 04:20:41 [Permalink]
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Taking this thread off into yet another unecessary tangent, I read an artical some years back that said that Yellowstone Park is nothing but a huge caldera. It further claimed that this volcano blew every 100,000 years (I've no idea where & how they got this figure) and was past due to blow, making the recent snowmobile legislation moot.
It was well written, even studious, but it made the needle on my bullshit dectector twitch; 100,000 years isn't all that long, geologicly speaking. If the 'Stone went off that often, well, "Where's the beef?" It would seem to me that there would be a lot of evidence beyond gysers, mudpots, sulpherous stenchs, and so forth.
Does anybody else recall anything about this?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 11:10:19 [Permalink]
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| Remember hearing about that filthy. Yellowstone is a thin bit of crust, and there is some expectation of more than gysers, mudpots, and sulpherous stenches. Though there is also the expectation that it's dying out because that thin spot in the crust (much like the Hawaiian Islands) is moving as the North American tectonic plate moves. I seem to recall my geology instructor expressing the opinion that just because there were eruptions in the past doesn't necessarily mean there will be in the future, since the tectonic plates are not immobile. But until we know more of the regions currently geologic structure we can't tell whether there will be eruptions or not. One indicator, is Old Faithful which, from measurements, seems to be increasing the times between eruptions. Now I suppose I'll have to go find that info. That's what I seem to recall from class lectures. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2004 : 13:46:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Remember hearing about that filthy. Yellowstone is a thin bit of crust, and there is some expectation of more than gysers, mudpots, and sulpherous stenches. Though there is also the expectation that it's dying out because that thin spot in the crust (much like the Hawaiian Islands) is moving as the North American tectonic plate moves. I seem to recall my geology instructor expressing the opinion that just because there were eruptions in the past doesn't necessarily mean there will be in the future, since the tectonic plates are not immobile. But until we know more of the regions currently geologic structure we can't tell whether there will be eruptions or not. One indicator, is Old Faithful which, from measurements, seems to be increasing the times between eruptions. Now I suppose I'll have to go find that info. That's what I seem to recall from class lectures.
Tectonic plates; of course! I must be getting even driftier in my declining years not to have thought of that. And I too, seem to recall something about Old Faithful running a tad slow. I think I read it in a popuilar piece, somewhere.
This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for the info.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 09:40:11 [Permalink]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_National_Park
filthy,
scroll down to geology for an explanation of the movement of the surface plate over the thin portion of the crust that keeps yellowstone running.
Did see something about the last erruption being 600,000 years ago on the .gov Yellowstone site, didn't keep that one though. This is the better explanation. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 12:58:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_National_Park
filthy,
scroll down to geology for an explanation of the movement of the surface plate over the thin portion of the crust that keeps yellowstone running.
Did see something about the last erruption being 600,000 years ago on the .gov Yellowstone site, didn't keep that one though. This is the better explanation.
Great site, especally the geology part.
It seems that small eruptions have occured as recently as 70,000 years ago. The thought that it might be overdue for a boom ar a bealch seems not too far out. The last, world-weather-altering, species-extincting eruption was 630,000 years ago, according to the artical.
And, it seems that the 'beef' is there after all. There is evidence that the area was first formed by a real doozy of a boom 2.2 million years ago.
Thanks!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 13:31:00 [Permalink]
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| Sure. Been years since I took geology. But being so close was of interest to us. Though we did our field work for a week at Arches. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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