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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2004 : 14:42:33 [Permalink]
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No. Criminals are not the solution to crime. Let us admit "we" cannot handle it, and move on. Stay out of it completely until we can create a democracy at home.
quote:
Point taken, but isn't our responsibility to repair what we've broken?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 15:10:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Oh, by the by, anyone else a little skittish with the announcement that Tom Ridge is looking into the legal method to postpone the Presidential election in case of "terrorist attack"?
The only reason I could see to postpone the election is if something happend the night before, and only postponed for a couple of days. I don't think you need to worry though, If President Bush postponed the election he would have no chance of getting elected once the elections were held.
What if an attack happened the night before and Bush had no plan for the elections, I am sure the Dems would have a word about that. Looking into postponement is not the same as postponing the election. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 15:26:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Oh, by the by, anyone else a little skittish with the announcement that Tom Ridge is looking into the legal method to postpone the Presidential election in case of "terrorist attack"?
On the other hand, if there were an attack prior to the election, you have to know GW would be a shoe-in. Postponement until everyone settled down would be a good idea. HOwever, if you believe the current government would be so nasty as to try and COMPLETELY subvert our democratic process. . . . . |
-Chaloobi
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 15:50:58 [Permalink]
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So what's everyone thinking here? Thousands of muslim warriors overwhelm polling places across the country? Yeah...riiight.
Or do they suddenly decide to abort the election because of a threat of an attack? Anyone see how that might get abused?
So what would it take to delay an election? A single, vague event like a mysterious package Carl Rove drops off on his way to work? Is that all it would take. I'd like to hear thoughts on just what it would take to warrant the canceling of elections.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 17:06:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
So what's everyone thinking here? Thousands of muslim warriors overwhelm polling places across the country? Yeah...riiight.
Or do they suddenly decide to abort the election because of a threat of an attack? Anyone see how that might get abused?
So what would it take to delay an election? A single, vague event like a mysterious package Carl Rove drops off on his way to work? Is that all it would take. I'd like to hear thoughts on just what it would take to warrant the canceling of elections.
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I cannot see any event that would warrant canceling elections. But if a couple of polling places were bombed the night before or the morning of, I could see postponing the election for a couple of days if needed to ensure safe and fair elections. I know you cannot ensure 100% safety, but we should look and see if any other polling places can be bombed in the same way. I would hope that President Bush would consult the congress on postponement though.
Is it legal to postpone elections? |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 17:24:36 [Permalink]
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There is nothing currently in place that would give the administration the right to postpone the elections. But I think they're asking Congress to give them that right.
However, since the U.S. could hold elections in the midst of the Civil War I find it outrageous that Bush and his cronies would even suggest delaying the election in the event of a terrorist attack. Oh, I forgot Bush doesn't have to have legitimate justification for his actions, any old lie I mean reason will do.
Of course if there is an attack the closer it is to the election the better it is for Bush. Just think of all that free air time as he reassures the Nation that he will get those evil people and complain that the reason they could attack us again was because his administration wasn't given enough power, Patriot Act II anyone. And his opponents would likely have to bite their tongue because anything they say will be spun as being un-American. After all there is no such thing as the loyal opposition anymore you're either “with us or with the terrorists.”
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 17:40:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I cannot see any event that would warrant canceling elections. But if a couple of polling places were bombed the night before or the morning of, I could see postponing the election for a couple of days if needed to ensure safe and fair elections. I know you cannot ensure 100% safety, but we should look and see if any other polling places can be bombed in the same way. I would hope that President Bush would consult the congress on postponement though.
Don't we have enough military and police to guard our polling locations? If we don't then something is seriously wrong. We made it through elections during WWII and that was the real deal. To even discuss this considering what we have faced before and what we face now is ludicrous. If elections were postponed I guess that would signal to the terrorists that they had won wouldn't it? Does Bush have that little backbone to concede the defeat of our democracy over even a couple bombings? I bet FDR would have gone on the radio and told Americans not to surrender their freedom and to vote but I am thinking FDR was a great President where Bush is...well...Bush.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 18:36:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't we have enough military and police to guard our polling locations? If we don't then something is seriously wrong. We made it through elections during WWII and that was the real deal. To even discuss this considering what we have faced before and what we face now is ludicrous. If elections were postponed I guess that would signal to the terrorists that they had won wouldn't it? Does Bush have that little backbone to concede the defeat of our democracy over even a couple bombings? I bet FDR would have gone on the radio and told Americans not to surrender their freedom and to vote but I am thinking FDR was a great President where Bush is...well...Bush.
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Do you really think that police and military gaurds can stop all attacks on the US from terrorists? I wish that were true! As we have seen in the US, Iraq and around the world, terrorism is very difficult to predict and stop ahead of time.
I don't think that postponing the elections a few days says that the terrorists have won. I think it is more important to have fair elections than to have elections on a day that may be very confused and chaotic.
I do think it would have to be a very extreme and extensive attack to warrant this, but I do see a case for it. As long as the elected president can take office on time, I don't think that domacracy has suffered. I am only avacating this for a couple of days maximum, more than that I would not support.
If President Bush did this he would surely get thrown out of office. But I do not think that he is the type of person to seize power that way. (I sure you are laughing by now). |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 22:11:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or do they suddenly decide to abort the election because of a threat of an attack? Anyone see how that might get abused?
They have Tom Ridge, aka the Frightener, out scaring people everyday. It's his job to keep the vague and unrealistic threat in the forfront of peoples minds. $10 says he announces some form of elevated terror warning a few days before elections, and does it with as much news coverage as he and the thought police can muster.
Robb, I can't respond intelligently to anyone who claims that delaying elections is ok.... I have to repress the urge to cause physical damage to people who say that shit in my presence. If the elections in this country are delayed, we will be in danger of losing our democracy. There is no reason for not holding an election, no number of terrorist attacks should delay it, no number of threats, nothing.
I think there will be widespread protest if elections aren't held on the day they are supposed to be held. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 23:50:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I think a lot of the terrorists want Bush out of the White House just as much as we do. Maybe we should explain to them that if they attack, he has a greater chance of winning the election. They probably wouldn't attack then....
I beg to differ, George W. Bush has been the greatest recruiting tool for Al Quieda ever. Every U.S. bomb or bullet that kills an Iraqi or similar will piss someone related to him/her off, the likely outcome that they will want revenge. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 05:15:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Robb, I can't respond intelligently to anyone who claims that delaying elections is ok.... I have to repress the urge to cause physical damage to people who say that shit in my presence.
What does this add to the discussion?
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If the elections in this country are delayed, we will be in danger of losing our democracy. There is no reason for not holding an election, no number of terrorist attacks should delay it, no number of threats, nothing.
What if a terror attack causes some people not to be able to vote? or ballots are lost and cannot be counted?
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I think there will be widespread protest if elections aren't held on the day they are supposed to be held.
I agree. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 06:15:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Oh, by the by, anyone else a little skittish with the announcement that Tom Ridge is looking into the legal method to postpone the Presidential election in case of "terrorist attack"?
The only reason I could see to postpone the election is if something happend the night before, and only postponed for a couple of days. I don't think you need to worry though, If President Bush postponed the election he would have no chance of getting elected once the elections were held.
What if an attack happened the night before and Bush had no plan for the elections, I am sure the Dems would have a word about that. Looking into postponement is not the same as postponing the election.
I really hate to draw this equavalency, but those who do not learn from the past are damned to repeat it.
The year, 1932.
Papen decides to postpone elections until street violence abates. A few months later, he decides to postpone elections indefinately and declare martial law to stop the street violence marring the election.
"Of course, the people do not want war. But it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Göring, at his Nuremberg Trial
I do not see a reason to trust this administration to only postpone an election "a few days". This country has never postponed elections even in the face of armed conflict on our shores, to even suggest it is highly suspect. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 07:15:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I think any postponement of the election should be left solely up to congress, the President should get no say in it whatsoever. This is the only way I would ever agree with the postponement of an election, and I may still not then.
It is my understanding that this is the case. The congress sets the date of elections through US code http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/3/1.html by authority of the constitution:
quote:
Article. II.
Section. 1.
Clause 4: The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
From memory, so let me know if I am wrong, the electors are counted on January 6th in the Senate. So as long as congress changes the date we vote and kept the January 6th date for counting the electors, and as long as the President is sworn in on January 20th, has democracy been denied?
Again, I would be very uncomfortable if the elections were postponed.
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