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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2004 : 11:27:26 [Permalink]
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Gotcha, Kil. I'm still kinda skeptical that a large number of medical problems simply "get better on their own." Even if a lot of them do eventual heal, we can be pretty damn miserable waiting, dealing with the symptoms.
My allergies don't go away on their own. I need nasal spray and antihistamines every May, or I end up irritable, tired, congested...my nose runs and I sneeze constantly. I'm then more susceptible to a sinus or ear infection (which I used to get as a kid every summer). The weird thing about allergies, I've learned, is that they get progressively worse if you don't catch them early. The "just wait" method would make me considerably sicker (I've learned this the hard way.) It's as if once the histamine reaction starts, it reacts to more and more things, and pretty soon someone's perfume on the bus makes me sneeze.
I don't think telling someone who doesn't feel well or who has a serious illness to ignore alternative medicine because they'll "get better on their own" will get you very far. Nor do I think alternative medicine is the answer, mind you. When people seek alternative care, they're seeking relief from what they believe are real health problems...which seems to be a more powerful motivator than skeptical thinking.
Dunno what the solution is. 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 13:46:07 [Permalink]
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Have I ever convinced anybody? I don't think so, and like I said, I don't try.
Having a bad headache could mean a migraine, a sinus infection, or a stroke, so sometimes you SHOULD see a doctor with a headache. If you have a cold, perhaps you should go as well: I developed walking pneumonia after a bout with the flu. I was prescribed antibiotics, steroids to reduce the inflammation in my lungs, and cough syrup. I don't think I would've gotten better if I hadn't gone to the doctor.
Sorry...I see what you all are saying, but I'm not buying the "body usually heals itself" stuff. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 14:24:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Sorry...I see what you all are saying, but I'm not buying the "body usually heals itself" stuff.
Actually, it does, or we wouldn't be here. Modern medicine hasn't been around for very long. If we didn't have the ability to fight off illness ourselves, we probably wouldn't have made it this far. Sure there were cures and some of them even worked. And sure, people with serious conditions probably
died of their illness. Still, our bodies have an amazing array of defends against diseases including a whole immune system...
"The human immune system is a truly amazing constellation of responses to attacks from outside the body. It has many facets, a number of which can change to optimize the response to these unwanted intrusions. The system is remarkably effective, most of the time."
http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/BUGL/immune.htm#intro |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 23:30:26 [Permalink]
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Renae wrote:quote:
My allergies don't go away on their own. I need nasal spray and antihistamines every May, or I end up irritable, tired, congested...my nose runs and I sneeze constantly.
But how would you feel, for example, the following December, if you'd had no sprays or other drugs at all in the intervening seven months? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 05:49:21 [Permalink]
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Dave, it's possible that if I took no treatment from May through December, that I would still be sick in December. With early, dilligent treatment, I can usually stop treatment by July. But like I said, the histamine reaction does not get better on its own; rather, it gets more sensitized and I start reacting to things I didn't react to before. I would also likely have infections, because constant fluid in the sinuses makes them more hospitable to bacteria.
In case you're thinking my body would get better on its own: it doesn't; it gets worse in this case.
Kil, I think you knew what I meant. Generally speaking, broken bones don't set themselves; cancerous tumors don't disappear, AIDS doesn't cure itself (nor can we cure it), ACL ligaments don't repair themselves, Alzheimer's patients' brains don't become untangled, etc. Without prompt antibiotic treatment, infections can get worse and cause more damage. Without early careful pain control, pain symdromes can develop that are harder to break. Etc. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 09:46:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Kil, I think you knew what I meant. Generally speaking, broken bones don't set themselves; cancerous tumors don't disappear, AIDS doesn't cure itself (nor can we cure it), ACL ligaments don't repair themselves, Alzheimer's patients' brains don't become untangled, etc. Without prompt antibiotic treatment, infections can get worse and cause more damage. Without early careful pain control, pain symdromes can develop that are harder to break. Etc.
What percentage of these cases take place, and what percentage of things are the common cold, a headache, a fever, the flu...etc?
How many times do you get a broken bone, and how many times do you get a cut which the body can heal itself? How many times in ones life do you get a cancerous tumor compared to a cold? How many times do you get ACL ligaments (not quite sure what that is) compared to a headache? What percentage of the population has Alzheimer's and what percentage has ever had a fever? How many infections (I am guessing you are talking about bacterial?) don't get cured by the immune system and how many do?
What you will find is that all the things where the body can help itself happen much more frequently than those where it can't. That is all that Kil was saying.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 10/03/2004 09:47:59 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 10:28:04 [Permalink]
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Ricky, you didn't offer percentages, and the ones Kil offered, he admitted he made up.
The common cold is not curable, but taking antiviral drugs can shorten the duration of the flu. Sometimes, especially in some people, the flu can turn into pneumonia, which can kill you (and is actually a leading cause of death in older people.) If your body isn't kicking a cold or a flu after a week or so, a visit to the doctor is reasonable to rule out complications or to get something to help relieve your symptoms.
Alzheimer's is actually pretty common (nearly half of those 85 and older, according to the National Institutes on Aging) and it sometimes responds to medication. Depression is a common reason for visits to primary care doctors and merits a trip to the doctor (sometimes depression improves on its own; sometimes not and if not, sometimes results in suicide, not spontaneous healing.) Lower back pain is a common reason for primary care doc visits and has been shown to get better faster with both chiropractic and physical therapy.
I don't know how many bacterial infections are healed by the body as opposed to those who need antibiotics. Physicians generally treat bacterial infections pretty aggressively because they don't want them to get out of hand, yes? Ever hear of septicemia, where an infection spreads to your blood and can kill you?
I know our bodies fight of some bacterial and viral diseases naturally, while at least some viruses live in our bodies and become active later. The herpes virus is not curable and can reactivate at later times. I think that's also true with the chicken pox virus, which reactivates as shingles. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 12:53:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ricky, you didn't offer percentages, and the ones Kil offered, he admitted he made up.
I believe Kil gave those percentages just to show a lot of people don't need to be treated vs the few that do.
quote:
The common cold is not curable, but taking antiviral drugs can shorten the duration of the flu.
But the point here is that the flu will go away if you leave it alone, in the high percentage of cases, which may I remind you is what we are talking about.
quote:
Sometimes, especially in some people, the flu can turn into pneumonia, which can kill you (and is actually a leading cause of death in older people.) If your body isn't kicking a cold or a flu after a week or so, a visit to the doctor is reasonable to rule out complications or to get something to help relieve your symptoms.
It is much more likely that you will get better all by yourself. What percentage of the flu turn into pneumonia? I'm fairly sure it is less than 10%. And has anyone here ever had a cold which didn't normally go away?
quote:
Alzheimer's is actually pretty common (nearly half of those 85 and older, according to the National Institutes on Aging) and it sometimes responds to medication.
I think you missed the point. Alzheimer's is much more rare than say something like a fever. Are you comparing Alzheimer's patience who need medicine to Alzheimer's patience who don't? We are talking about the percentage of things which need treatment compared to the percentage of those that don't. Comparing Alzheimer's to getting a fever, getting a fever is much more likely and under the majority of cases, does not need to be treated by a doctor.
quote:
Depression is a common reason for visits to primary care doctors and merits a trip to the doctor (sometimes depression improves on its own; sometimes not and if not, sometimes results in suicide, not spontaneous healing.)
How many depressed people are there compared to how many who have had a blister?
quote:
Lower back pain is a common reason for primary care doc visits and has been shown to get better faster with both chiropractic and physical therapy.
How about getting a sore on your lip? Compare that number to the number of people who have lower back pain.
quote:
I don't know how many bacterial infections are healed by the body as opposed to those who need antibiotics. Physicians generally treat bacterial infections pretty aggressively because they don't want them to get out of hand, yes? Ever hear of septicemia, where an infection spreads to your blood and can kill you?
Whenever you get a cut and the immediate area around it turns red and swells, that is the sign of an infection. I don't know about others, but I have had many (I don't normally take care of injuries right away...). After a few days, they have all seem to just go away.
quote:
I know our bodies fight of some bacterial and viral diseases naturally, while at least some viruses live in our bodies and become active later. The herpes virus is not curable and can reactivate at later times. I think that's also true with the chicken pox virus, which reactivates as shingles.
Just to note, there is only a small percentage of cases where the chicken pox virus later reactivates as shingles. And you know what? Chick pox is another great example of the body healing itself.
You can name all the diseases that need to be treated by a doctor. Go ahead, there are litterally hundreds, more likely thousands of them. However, that is not the point. The point here is that those in which the body heals itself are more likely to occur than those in which it doesn't. For every thing you need to go to the doctor for, I can name something in which (most cases) you don't, and one that is more common. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 13:58:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Ricky, you didn't offer percentages, and the ones Kil offered, he admitted he made up.
I didn't make those up. And probably they are fairly accurate. They came from a GP who after years of treating people felt that these percentages were probably pretty good, even if approximate...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 14:00:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Whenever you get a cut and the immediate area around it turns red and swells, that is the sign of an infection. I don't know about others, but I have had many (I don't normally take care of injuries right away...). After a few days, they have all seem to just go away.
This is not entirely true. The turning red and swelling are signs of inflammation. You are not infected yet, but the immune system is hastening to the spot and preparing for a possible attack. It will do this whether you are being attacked or not. Furthermore, inflamation is also needed to clear the debris of your cut and make sure recovery will take place. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 16:05:13 [Permalink]
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I have to dig deep here. My physiology/pathology books are at my parents', haven't been able to move them over yet. So from memory (if I'm talking nonsense here, someone please correct me).
Infection means that a bacteria or virus enters your body. Most of the time you'll notice exactly nothing. Your immune system should be able to catch the buggers and clear 'em out before anything happens, without the need of an inflammatory reaction. For example, after being vaccinated against measles, your body's defenses are triggered for it. Whenever a new measles virus enters the body, it will be eradicated before you will ever notice it was there.
If the bacteria has the ability to multiply in the body or the virus has the ability to infect a cell of the body and spread itself, the reaction of the body will be more severe, resulting in inflammation, either of specific parts or of the whole body (fever). |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 16:13:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
the reaction of the body will be more severe, resulting in inflammation, either of specific parts or of the whole body (fever).
If it results in inflammation and inflammation is:
"A localized protective reaction of tissue to irritation, injury, or infection, characterized by pain, redness, swelling, and sometimes loss of function." - dictonary.com
Then isn't that exactly what I said?
As for the fever, I had learned that this was a reaction by the body to attempt to destroy the intruders, as some break apart over 100F (but below 107F). |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 17:31:43 [Permalink]
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So basically, Ricky and Kil, you're offering me no real research or documentation; just your opinion (and that of one primary care doc) that most of the time, the body heals itself and people shouldn't bother with traditional medicine or alternative medicine.
I simply disagree. And, even if that were the case, you're missing the point of the thread, which is how to convince people to be skeptical.
If someone is seeking alternative care, my guess is that they are doing so not for a cold (and yes, at least half a dozen times I've had colds that turned into either pneumonia, sinus infections, or ear infections; same with many people I know). Many times they are seeking:
1. A sense of control
2. Hope
You can argue that alternative care gives a false sense of both of these, but that doesn't change those psychological needs that alternative care is sometimes meeting.
Honestly, to follow your logic, we don't really need primary care docs at all...we should all just sit around and be miserable until our bodies spontaneously heal themselves....
Uh...yeah. I'll watch my iron dwindle to nothing, suffer for 2-3 months in the summer till the pollen goes away, never check to see if I have strep throat or an ear infection 'cause those will go away... |
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