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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2004 : 19:43:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
So basically, Ricky and Kil, you're offering me no real research or documentation; just your opinion (and that of one primary care doc) that most of the time, the body heals itself and people shouldn't bother with traditional medicine or alternative medicine.
I just want to point out that the research that would be needed would have to list almost or all defects in a body, disease and physical, what percentage of people these take place in, and what percentage need the intervention of a doctore. [Looks at Kil] I'm not going to do that, are you?
quote:
If someone is seeking alternative care, my guess is that they are doing so not for a cold (and yes, at least half a dozen times I've had colds that turned into either pneumonia, sinus infections, or ear infections; same with many people I know).
I disagree, almost all (if not all) of alternate medicine is based on the placebo effect. This can not take place to set a broken bone, cure AIDS, or help someone with Alzheimer's patients. Disease and injuries which would normally go away are often used to support claims such as Homeopathy.
quote:
Honestly, to follow your logic, we don't really need primary care docs at all...we should all just sit around and be miserable until our bodies spontaneously heal themselves....
This is a Straw Man. We are not saying there is no need for doctor intervention at all, just in a lot of cases. By saying that we are saying there is no need for doctors at all is distoring our position.
quote:
Uh...yeah. I'll watch my iron dwindle to nothing, suffer for 2-3 months in the summer till the pollen goes away, never check to see if I have strep throat or an ear infection 'cause those will go away...
Same here. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 20:01:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I disagree, almost all (if not all) of alternate medicine is based on the placebo effect. This can not take place to set a broken bone, cure AIDS, or help someone with Alzheimer's patients. Disease and injuries which would normally go away are often used to support claims such as Homeopathy.
While this is correct, I would like to point out that most people who are gravely sick will take anything and everything with potential benefits. Someone with AIDS or cancer might be receiving modern medical treatment in addition to some quack remedy. So it isn't that these cures or remissions is always due to the placebo effect, but rather rather due to real medicines or treatments. It's simply that the "alternative" treatments are given partial or total credit for effecting these changes. For instance, a person might claim that specially prepared protein shakes cured them of cancer, neglecting to mention that they were also receiving radiation therapy at the same time.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/03/2004 20:02:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 21:56:36 [Permalink]
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And actually, H. Humbert, that practice can be particularly deadly. While many alternative medicines have no effects at all, it's certainly not true that they're all safe. For example, something as non-threatening as grapefruit juice can dramatically affect the levels of cyclosporine (an immune-suppressing drug mostly used by transplant patients) in the body. Wouldn't it suck rocks to have a transplanted kidney get rejected due to the advice of some alt-med "nutritionist" to switch from OJ to grapefruit juice?
This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to reinforce the warning that decisions based upon alt-med "wisdom" may not be so wise.
Along the lines of the topic under discussion, I would like to say that the idea that most medical issues are self-limiting is rather self-evident. I don't run to the doctor for every cut on my finger, as I know that for most such injuries, a little time is all that's needed for scabbing, and a little more time for healing.
Easily 80% of my son's illnesses to date (he's three-and-a-half on October 4th) have not required trips to the doctor, as he's just had the sniffles, a common-enough thing for such little walking germ factories.
Heck, I've only visited the doctor five times in the last 12 years for illness-related matters.- Psoriasis - incurable.
- Flu-like thing which hung on for a week and might have been bacterial - antibiotics prescribed, cleared up in another week.
- Knee injury - was told to use a foam brace for two weeks.
- Rosacea - incurable.
- Another nasty cold/flu thing which might have been bacterial - antibiotics again, same result.
Obviously, while I managed to avoid nasty acne, my skin is genetically crap. But the point is that during the same time period, I've had at least two dozen colds/flus/infections which didn't linger, uncountable small wounds which didn't fester, and uncountable aches and pains which - were I alarmist - would have warranted a visit to the doctor.
Heck, I've had three "summer colds" in as many months, the last coinciding with an illness my wife had which she sought treatment for, and which was diagnosed as strep. Her doctor told her that my getting strep was a sure thing. I guess I fought it off without medical aid.
The point - that human bodies usually do heal themselves - is, as Kil pointed out, made upon the success of our species without medicine. My "self example" is just a single instance of that healing ability working (mostly) just fine, thankyouverymuch. That it cannot always compensate fully is also obvious, but the "alt med" crowd don't restrict themselves to incurable or fatal diseases.
Heck, psoriasis is incurable, yet it's also a "relapsing/remitting" disease which can come and go without treatment or trigger, like some forms of MS. If one uses an alternative therapy, and has less psoriasis afterwards, is it due to the therapy, or because the immune system just decided to chill out for a bit? It's impossible to tell without testing on a large scale. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 02:52:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
the reaction of the body will be more severe, resulting in inflammation, either of specific parts or of the whole body (fever).
If it results in inflammation and inflammation is:
"A localized protective reaction of tissue to irritation, injury, or infection, characterized by pain, redness, swelling, and sometimes loss of function." - dictonary.com
Then isn't that exactly what I said?
No, you said that the inflammation was a result of an infection after you had cut. This is not true. A cut (or most other wounds) will always result in a small inflammation, whether you are infected or not. The inflammation also helps to clear debris from the site (like damaged cells). It can also give an extra barrier in case you are infected, since the site is a place were infection is more likely.
So, inflammation in wounds occurs whether you are infected or not.
Not every time you are infected you actually get an inflammation (or maybe it is better to say that you won't notice the inflammation because it is too small, I'm not sure).
If an infection is severe and your body has to fight it harder, inflammation will be the result.
quote:
As for the fever, I had learned that this was a reaction by the body to attempt to destroy the intruders, as some break apart over 100F (but below 107F).
True. I made a mistake there, because I don't think it is part of the inflammatory response. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 06:06:09 [Permalink]
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Ricky, you're missing my point entirely, and perhaps deliberately.
I didn't say alternative medicine cured anything, and I've not argued once in support of alternative medicine. What I said, ahem, was that IMO, people didn't seek alternative medicine for things like colds, but rather for things that traditional medicine could not help them with. I then listed the psychological reasons why I thought people sought alternative medicine, and why the "you'll get better anyway" argument isn't likely to work. In addition, I also think it's rather offensive and dismissive. It isn't fun to be sick--and it's less fun to be sick when the doctor can't help you and others around you dismiss what you're going through.
Dave, I don't think it's self-evident at all, in fact, I don't think it's even correct. Your roseacea, acne, and psoriasis may wax and wane, and they may (or may not) vanish one day...but they are all very treatable and all warrant visits to the doctor if they disturb you. That a disease isn't curable doesn't mean we shouldn't seek medical attention, nor should it be included in Kil's 80% (which he first said he made up, then said he didn't.) Cripes.
You guys generally don't go to the doctor unless your wee wees are about to fall off anyway.   |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 06:22:21 [Permalink]
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I've got the idea everybody is saying the same. Could we maybe all agree on the following:
that in general the body does very well in fighting of diseases and curing itself when it is sick.
that every now and then a disease comes around that the body itself can't cure and that we should seek out medical attention in that case in stead of doing nothing.
that alternative medicine can have beneficial effects due to a placebo effect, but that if alternative medicin is used, it should always be used in supplement to regular medicin, were a physician knows of the alternative treatment used and can advice accordingly (and that a physician's advice should be headed).
I think that is what everybody seems to want to say here. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 08:27:01 [Permalink]
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Renae wrote:quote:
That a disease isn't curable doesn't mean we shouldn't seek medical attention, nor should it be included in Kil's 80% (which he first said he made up, then said he didn't.) Cripes.
No, you've misunderstood. The psoriasis, rosacea, etc. were problems for which I did visit the doctor. They're among the 20% of issues I've had which did not appear, at the time, to be self-limiting. Unlike the countless other minor medical issues I've had - and I'm sure everyone has - which don't warrant professional medical attention (cuts, scrapes, bruises, headcolds, etc.). Those last easily make up 80% or more of all possible health problems. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 08:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
I talked to a Doctor friend of mine who said about 80 percent of the people who come to see him will get better with no intervention at all. 10 percent need mild intervention but would probably recover with none. The last 10 percent require medical intervention or the condition will worsen and possibly lead to a medical emergency.
quote:
Renea:
Kil, I'm a little confused by that 80-10-10 statistic.
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Me:
First off, I would not defend that statistic as exact. It was off the top of my friends head.
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Renea:
and the ones Kil offered, he admitted he made up.
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Me:
I didn't make those up. And probably they are fairly accurate. They came from a GP who after years of treating people felt that these percentages were probably pretty good, even if approximate...
quote:
Renea:
nor should it be included in Kil's 80% (which he first said he made up, then said he didn't.) Cripes.
Renea, I have never presented those figures as exact. I never said I made them up. They are, again, approximations from a GP. They are probably pretty good based on his experience over the years. Please don't put words into my mouth...
And even if those figures are off some, they are not off to a point that would change what I was saying about why alternative medicine might seem to be effective... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:14:07 [Permalink]
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| Id say its closer to 80% than 50%, most folks nowadays just dont have the patience to wait it outor their boss sends them to a doc or fear of boss, etc. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:26:46 [Permalink]
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I feel like the initial point has been lost...
Renae, most people who claim "alternative medicine" did it for them most probably belong to the (80%?) people who's problem would have gone away eventually anyway. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 15:05:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
What strategies have you found to be useful in reasoning with believers?
Any response is greatly appreciated.
Beleivers and Reason.... oil and water.
Generally I have a two part response when confronted with people who "believe". (whatever the nonsense is)
1. You really believe that?
they answer yes....
2. You know you're a fucking idiot, right?
Usually this gets them to shut up and leave me alone, which is one of two things I really want from the "believers". The other would be for them to realize their failure to apply critical thought to the issue at hand.... but I have learned that I am asking to much of people when I expect critical thought out of them. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 18:36:44 [Permalink]
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Sorry, Kil, I thought you had estimated that.
Ricky, we weren't discussing how many conditions were self-limiting; only how many visits to primary care docs were for self-limiting conditions.
From the NIH:
quote:
Hypertension was the most common diagnosis rendered by physicians, cited at 3.9 percent of the visits.
and the top 5 diagnoses of primary care physicians:
1. Hypertension
2. Otitis media (ear infection, most common among children)
3. Acute upper respiratory infection
4. Diabetes mellitus
5. Chronic sinusitis (bacterial 40-50% of the time)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_13/sr13_136.pdf
While an upper respiratory infection is generally a cold and will self-limit, I don't think the other four can be classified as such. Otitis media is sometimes self-limiting, can result in tympanic membrane rupture, and is generally treated with antibiotics (per the CDC).
From Forbes magazine, top ten complaints, not limited to primary care though:
1. Cough
2. Sore throat
3. Skin rashes
4. Vision problems
5. Knee problems
6. Back problems
7. Stomach problems
8. Earache/ear infection
9. Hypertension (It topped the list of most common diagnoses in 2000)
10. Depression
I talked with my ex-almost-husband today about this. He's a male nurse who was surprised and a little dismayed by the comments here.
First, his estimate is that around 50% of the people he saw in primary care had conditions that would have healed on their own. He thought 80-90% was a little too high.
Second, he believes the "you'll get better anyway" attitude is dangerous. He gave the example of TIAs as precursors to strokes. Yes, the TIAs may "go away", but they also signal that a stroke may be coming--and quick treatment can decrease the chance of a stroke. The same goes true for injuries and back pain: not seeking treatment can make the injury and/or pain worse.
Third, he felt that as (relatively) young men who rarely see the doctor, your own personal experiences are not necessarily representative of the population as a whole (nor are mine as a woman.)
Roseacea and acne aren't always self-limiting. They may wax and wane, and/or they may continue for a lifetime. I have roseacea, and my body hasn't "healed itself"; I put cream on my nose, and sometimes it's red and sometimes it isn't. But it's never gone away completely and I doubt it ever will.
Now I'm pretty much done with this topic.  In my next life, I'll be less obsessive-compulsive.  |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 20:09:37 [Permalink]
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Renae wrote:quote:
Second, he believes the "you'll get better anyway" attitude is dangerous.
It's not an attitude, but a consequence of the fact that many medical conditions are self-limiting. And as another consequence, we find many people who say things like, "my knee hurt, so I put on this Q-Ray bracelet, and the pain went away. So I wear it all the time now, even though it's turning my wrist green."quote:
He gave the example of TIAs as precursors to strokes. Yes, the TIAs may "go away", but they also signal that a stroke may be coming--and quick treatment can decrease the chance of a stroke. The same goes true for injuries and back pain: not seeking treatment can make the injury and/or pain worse.
Indeed! And often, seeking "alternative" treatment for such things is as good an idea as not seeing a doctor at all, which is the point.quote:
Third, he felt that as (relatively) young men who rarely see the doctor, your own personal experiences are not necessarily representative of the population as a whole (nor are mine as a woman.)
Sigh.quote:
Roseacea and acne aren't always self-limiting.
AARRGHH! I know that! I've said that. You've completely missed the point of my bringing up my rosacea, even though I told you that you misunderstood. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 21:12:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Second, he believes the "you'll get better anyway" attitude is dangerous.
Who suggested that we adopt that attitude? It wasn't me. I am saying that those who seek alternative care, a homeopath for example, and get better because they would have anyway, will credit the homeopathics for the cure! I also pointed out how this can be a dangerous practice if you happen to fall into the percentage that needs real medical intervention. (And that percentage can be any frigging percentage you, Renea, feel comfortable with...) |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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