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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  18:33:06  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Hi, skeptic friends. Think GW pulled off a popular defeat of Kerry in Ohio, contrary to exit polling data? Are we sure? Read this:-- Diebold, the second largest voting machine company. CEO is Wally O'Dell, who recently visited George W. Bush at his Crawford ranch along with an elite group of Bush supporters called the "Rangers" and "Pioneers.” Days later, he penned a letter to Ohio Republicans promising to help "deliver the votes" for Bush. O'Dell sponsored a $600,000 fund raiser for Dick Cheney in July. Diebold director W.H. Timken is also a Bush Pioneer. (taken from Buzzflash.com)
What do you think?


Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm

Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  18:57:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Is it possible that our national elections are being hijacked? With new technology and attitudes toward election polls the way for backdoor vote hacking is wide open. No auditing capability is possible with the new electronic and touch screen voting. No hard copies to count by hand. Are we having our Republic stolen out from under us? At least with "hanging chads" we have a punch card to look at, but what can we check with electronic machines and computer tabulation...the programmer can build in a back door to alter the vote.

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  19:16:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
Darnit, wouldn't you know my tinfoil hat would be at the cleaners.

But seriously, I don't see any point in indulging in conspiracy theories unless some significant evidence of high-tech chicanery should surface.

I have to say that I think that any voting system which can't be audited or recounted independent of the machinery is completely unacceptable.

If you ran a business, would you buy an accounting package that produced records which could not be audited?

No? Then what reason could we have to accept a lower standard in voting?

Any voting system, both the polling place equipment and the systems used to count the votes simply must provide for disputed elections to be recounted by people who could be drawn from the affected community, with literacy, basic numeracy and integrity as the only "technical" qualifications.

Anything else is utterly unacceptable.

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  19:21:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Hi, skeptic friends. Think GW pulled off a popular defeat of Kerry in Ohio, contrary to exit polling data? Are we sure? Read this:-- Diebold, the second largest voting machine company. CEO is Wally O'Dell, who recently visited George W. Bush at his Crawford ranch along with an elite group of Bush supporters called the "Rangers" and "Pioneers.” Days later, he penned a letter to Ohio Republicans promising to help "deliver the votes" for Bush. O'Dell sponsored a $600,000 fund raiser for Dick Cheney in July. Diebold director W.H. Timken is also a Bush Pioneer. (taken from Buzzflash.com)
What do you think?


I think that it may need to be looked into, but from what you have presented here, no conclusion can be made. But then again, I expected for the issue of voter fraud to come up no matter what happened in the election, especially after last year.

Lets just face it: Bush won. I am holding this position until contrary evidence is provided. This is suggestive evidence, by no means real evidence.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  19:29:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
Hi, skeptic friends. Think GW pulled off a popular defeat of Kerry in Ohio, contrary to exit polling data? Are we sure? Read this:-- Diebold, the second largest voting machine company. CEO is Wally O'Dell, who recently visited George W. Bush at his Crawford ranch along with an elite group of Bush supporters called the "Rangers" and "Pioneers.” Days later, he penned a letter to Ohio Republicans promising to help "deliver the votes" for Bush. O'Dell sponsored a $600,000 fund raiser for Dick Cheney in July. Diebold director W.H. Timken is also a Bush Pioneer. (taken from Buzzflash.com)
What do you think?


I think that it may need to be looked into, but from what you have presented here, no conclusion can be made. But then again, I expected for the issue of voter fraud to come up no matter what happened in the election, especially after last year.

Lets just face it: Bush won. I am holding this position until contrary evidence is provided. This is suggestive evidence, by no means real evidence.

Hmpf. It doesn't matter if the fucker really won or not, he still won. The only hope left is that the media finally grows a set of balls and begins doing the job they are overpaid to do.

Fat chance!



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  19:30:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Bush won. I am holding this position until contrary evidence is provided. This is suggestive evidence, by no means real evidence.



Indeed, Ricky. I think it will be very difficult to obtain evidence. That's the object of high tech crime...making it very difficult to trace. The fact alone that the makers of several of the voting machines are supporters of GW should raise eyebrows and cause some consternation, just as a no-bid contract awarded to Halliburton should have raised eyebrows...If we think it will be easy to expose corruption in high office, we better think again. Along with the power these men have comes the ability to alter circumstances to favor themselves.
-- The audit trail is being taken away: An audit is simply the act of comparing two independent data sets that are supposed to match. Probably the most important understory to the voting issue right now is this: The voting industry is spending literally millions of dollars, and going through amazing feats of contorted logic that can best be described as marketing gymnastics, to convince us that we should discontinue proper auditing. They want us to eliminate the ballot which you verify, and trust the secret system instead. Even with the optical scan machines, which retain a paper ballot, some states have passed laws to prevent us from looking at the paper ballot to use it for a proper audit.taken from Buzzflash.com
Raising awareness is the issue here. If we think corruption is impossible due to new technology, just the opposite is true.

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  19:57:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
http://blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1

Here is a link describing the dangers of 21st century electronic voting.

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2004 :  20:36:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Doomar, how many times have I ever been in complete agreement with you? Well, this is one of them. There must be an accurate paper trail from all voting machines.

If all or just any of these claims are true, and it seems more and more that some at least are, I want some inditments.

Ain't gonna happen though, methinks........


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  04:41:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Well, Filthy, you may be right. Bringing this weakness in our voting system to light is essential before anything can be done. As long as citizens think everything is kosher, they will just accept the statis quo. The Florida count of 2000 only seemed to encourage the use of more and more electronic voting machines. This is an extremely dangerous trend, in my opinion. With paper ballots and people counting them, the tendency for errors and corruption is much smaller. With computer tallying, a hacker can alter the final results at a whim. And with the motivation to do so being the election to a powerful office....need I say more?

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  04:49:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
I have to say that I think that any voting system which can't be audited or recounted independent of the machinery is completely unacceptable.

dittos to that! So why are we accepting this inferior electronic voting method? Here's what I think: Big corps lobbying for the change, cheaper voting cost in long run to counties, lots of money to be made by the lobbying corps in making machines, and a real way to corrupt elections by back door hacking, thus, extreme power to be gained by a highly untracable computer hack job.
"what example do you have of this happening?" Now if it was that easy to trace, how would it be "untracable". Point is, as you said, "any voting system which can't be audited or recounted independent of the machinery is completely unacceptable".

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  05:28:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Mmm, honestly, I do believe the electronic voting is easy to corrupt. It's in fact really, really easy. Pointing out this flaw is a must, yet...

Only because it can happen doesn't mean it did happen. All I wanted was to see Bush off his seat, preferarbly to a nice rubber padded room, but let's face it: he may have won without cheating.

If anyone brought this up now, it'd be rising suspicions everywhere, as conspiracy theories often do. Unless it's proven he did cheat, this will eventually be faced as slander (by implying things can be manipulated right after an election, and thus raising doubt about the veracity of the results) and only strenghten his position ("Look! They persecute me!"). The whole the-system-is-flawed deal might be discredited as a simple lie with the object of detracting the president of U. S. of A.

[/ramble]

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  06:44:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Well, Filthy, you may be right. Bringing this weakness in our voting system to light is essential before anything can be done. As long as citizens think everything is kosher, they will just accept the statis quo. The Florida count of 2000 only seemed to encourage the use of more and more electronic voting machines. This is an extremely dangerous trend, in my opinion. With paper ballots and people counting them, the tendency for errors and corruption is much smaller. With computer tallying, a hacker can alter the final results at a whim. And with the motivation to do so being the election to a powerful office....need I say more?

Nope. You've pretty well covered it, and quite well I might add.

I am hearing more and more 'net rumbles that massive fraud did indeed take place. The 'net is not always the most reliable of sources, but still, I'm now wondering if this election might not come back to bite someone besides us.

Or am I still indulging in wishful dreaming?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  07:22:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Not that my intuition should be the basis for anything other than my own personal truths, but the results did smell fishy to me. I believe it's possible and reasonable that the GOP hijacked the election. Provable? I don't think so.

Evidence that comes to mind:

Exit polls had Kerry leading in states he eventually lost.

Documented reports of voter disenfranchisement, mainly by Republicans.
(South Dakota, Florida, and Ohio)

Karl Rove's history of dirty political tricks.

Follow the money: corporate power has an unprecedented cash cow in George W. Bush. Is it a stretch to think they would do unethical or illegal things to keep their cash coming?

My guess is that it happened by disenfranchisement.

JMO, FWIW.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  07:30:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
My guess is that it happened by disenfranchisement.

What would happen if this turns out to be true? I heard there were people in Florida that got cheated out of their right to vote. What's the legal stance on such things? Who, if any, get to go to prison? If enough people complain they got disenfranchised, could there be a re-election?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  07:42:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
Yeah, it was probably "fixed". Four years ago I never would have dreamed such a thing... much less agreed with it. I believe it now. Still the Republicians ran a brilliant campaign. A simply brilliant campaign.

Since the election I have been thinking (obsessing, probably) about what makes people do the things they do. Things that do not appear to be logical. Things that do not make sense to any sentient being. It seems to me the whole thing hung on God, though I've had a hard time figuring out why. I personally don't believe in God, but if I did it would make sense to me to believe that He gave us the ability to think for a reason. The majority of the country seems not to agree with me. Why?

John Kerry takes the position that he personally does not condone gay marriage, but believes the population should have the ability to make moral decisions for themselves. George Bush takes the position that it's wrong and we're not gonna have it.

John Kerry takes the position that he does not condone abortion, but believes in a woman's right to choose. George Bush says it's wrong, and we're not gonna have it.

I could go on, of course, but you all know all this, and you all know George Bush won. He won because he makes absolute decisions absolutely. And the thing is - people don't want to decide anything for themselves. They want the decisive guy who will encourage them to pray to God for guidance so they don't have to work things out for themselves or take any personal responsibility. The President will take care of everything. While they're on their knees with their eyes closed, he will ask Dick Cheney what to do about everything else. It's all taken care of without anyone having to break a sweat. Of course, their eyes are closed so they can't see what the President is doing to the country, but it wouldn't really matter if they did, because at least they wouldn't have to think about anything.

If there were angels, they would weep.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  08:40:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Or am I still indulging in wishful dreaming?

The Redskins lost. There is hope.

I wonder what would happen if it did prove to be right, that he 'fixed' the election. Would that give Kerry a default win?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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