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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend

USA
424 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  09:08:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send NubiWan a Private Message
Were this true, I'ld feel alot better about my fellow countrymen. But would it ever come to any legitimate legan action..? Let's see, the GOP controls both houses, the executive, not to mention the supremes... Were I a betting man, would put my money on "nothing will ever come of it." Do I believe the audacious crew now in control, would try such a thing.., if they thought they could pull it off, asolutely!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  11:56:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Nubiwan is probably correct. But, if by some fluke of justice, the Chancre and the Pustule were convicted of a fraud, I think the Speaker of the House would assume the office and pick his VP -- someone correct me if I'm wrong, here.

Considering who holds that seat, it wouldn't be much of an improvement.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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joedesmarais
New Member

Iraq
18 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  20:22:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send joedesmarais a Private Message
I could go on, of course, but you all know all this, and you all know George Bush won. He won because he makes absolute decisions absolutely. And the thing is - people don't want to decide anything for themselves. They want the decisive guy who will encourage them to pray to God for guidance so they don't have to work things out for themselves or take any personal responsibility. The President will take care of everything. While they're on their knees with their eyes closed, he will ask Dick Cheney what to do about everything else. It's all taken care of without anyone having to break a sweat. Of course, their eyes are closed so they can't see what the President is doing to the country, but it wouldn't really matter if they did, because at least they wouldn't have to think about anything


The fact is, people admire leadership, they respect courage under fire, they appreciate frankness. During the debates, people wondered how Bush, who was obviously outclassed by the more literate Kerry, still managed to increase his lead in the polls. The fact is, people want someone who is plain spoken (even if perhaps his vocabulary is not perfect), does what he says and stands by it.
On top of this, skeptics, atheist, elitist, etc. have seemed to forgotten our countries religous roots, which seemed to make a huge difference in this election. Yes, Bush took stands on things, while Kerry prefferred not too....and he won, convincingly. Don't pretend to think that 59 plus million people were just looking to avoid personal responsbility. Don't pretend to think that the majority of Americans were down on their knees, being controlled by Bush/Cheney. That's too easy a solution.
Oh, and I knew the conspiracy theories would soon abound. anyone with proof of Republican fraud? Of course not, because if there were the hundreds of Democratic lawyers that were posted all throughout Ohio and Fla would have been ringing Kerry's bell like crazy. The fact is, Kerry knew he had no chance and did an honorable thing, he conceded without wasting all of our time.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  21:14:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
joedesmarais:
The fact is, people admire leadership, they respect courage under fire, they appreciate frankness. During the debates, people wondered how Bush, who was obviously outclassed by the more literate Kerry, still managed to increase his lead in the polls.

Actually, Kerry pulled up to almost even with Bush after the first debate and never lost that position. In other words, Bush lost points due to the debates.
quote:

The fact is, people want someone who is plain spoken (even if perhaps his vocabulary is not perfect), does what he says and stands by it.

Right or wrong?
quote:

On top of this, skeptics, atheist, elitist, etc. have seemed to forgotten our countries religous roots, which seemed to make a huge difference in this election.

You must mean that our founding fathers did not forget about religous persecution so they created a wall between the church and state so that would never happen here?
quote:

Yes, Bush took stands on things, while Kerry preferred not too....and he won, convincingly. Don't pretend to think that 59 plus million people were just looking to avoid personal responsibility. Don't pretend to think that the majority of Americans were down on their knees, being controlled by Bush/Cheney. That's too easy a solution.

Oh no. They voted for Pax Americana (war in Iraq), Neocons, run-away deficits, gutting environmental protections, tax breaks for the wealthy, and all those other "religous" values...
quote:
Oh, and I knew the conspiracy theories would soon abound. anyone with proof of Republican fraud? Of course not, because if there were the hundreds of Democratic lawyers that were posted all throughout Ohio and Fla would have been ringing Kerry's bell like crazy. The fact is, Kerry knew he had no chance and did an honorable thing, he conceded without wasting all of our time.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that this election was stolen. I would have to see much more evidence than has been posted on this thread to believe that. However, I do subscribe to the notion that somehow the GOP increased its base by appealing to a segment of our population that they would sooner feed to the lions if it meant the difference in an election. GOP does not spell God...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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mngamojemo
New Member

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  02:45:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit mngamojemo's Homepage Send mngamojemo a Private Message
http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

Does this link shed any light on whether or not the election was tampered with? Of course, this is something I found on the internet, so it could just as well not be "proof".

Oxygen is for Losers.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  03:08:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by mngamojemo

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

Does this link shed any light on whether or not the election was tampered with? Of course, this is something I found on the internet, so it could just as well not be "proof".

We've had other sites posted before that looked legit but turned out to be fakes. This site, if real is extremely disturbing.

The most telling stats are the exit polls matching the paper ballots much closer than the exit polls matched the electronic ballots.

The other was the number of votes for president being higher than the number of voters over and over in each district. In Ohio one district had almost 4,000 votes for Bush but only 600 or so voters.

Bring those lawyers back.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  03:21:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais

....The fact is, people admire leadership, they respect courage under fire, they appreciate frankness. During the debates, people wondered how Bush, who was obviously outclassed by the more literate Kerry, still managed to increase his lead in the polls. The fact is, people want someone who is plain spoken (even if perhaps his vocabulary is not perfect), does what he says and stands by it.
On top of this, skeptics, atheist, elitist, etc. have seemed to forgotten our countries religous roots, which seemed to make a huge difference in this election. Yes, Bush took stands on things, while Kerry prefferred not too....and he won, convincingly. Don't pretend to think that 59 plus million people were just looking to avoid personal responsbility. Don't pretend to think that the majority of Americans were down on their knees, being controlled by Bush/Cheney. That's too easy a solution.
Oh, and I knew the conspiracy theories would soon abound. anyone with proof of Republican fraud? Of course not, because if there were the hundreds of Democratic lawyers that were posted all throughout Ohio and Fla would have been ringing Kerry's bell like crazy. The fact is, Kerry knew he had no chance and did an honorable thing, he conceded without wasting all of our time.


Those may be your reasons for supporting Bush, but I don't think you can dismiss several other reasons people voted for him. One reason stated by a large % of Bush supporters was they bought the misleading claims meant to deceive people. They believed Saddam posed an imminent threat and was involved in the 9-11 attack.

Then there was the gay marriage red herring that was thrown to some of those religious zealots to get them to the polls.

Republicans have no morals when it comes to marketing themselves. Bearing false witness is too far down on that 10 commandment list to get much air time. Being gay is a worse sin, of course, but God must have forgotten to put that one on the list.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/07/2004 03:23:46
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  06:42:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hi mngamojemo and welcome to SFN!

Voting fraud in FL, from phony felon lists to actual tampering, was all but expected. The only suprise will be the extent, one way or another, if it ever comes to light.

More and more, I'm reading about some sort of huge hack into these computer-type machines. I don't know if it's for real or just more internet paranoia.

Unfortunatly, the national media can no longer be trusted due to thinly disgusied partisanship. We're left with reading the blogs and hoping to find the honest ones.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  09:38:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
The admittedly liberal Air America Radio talked endlessly about voter fraud this week. They referred to this site:

www.blackboxvoting.org

The above organization is working on FIOA (Freedom of Information Act) requests. Gawdluv whoever created the FIOA.

Dr. M, I don't think the charges of voter disenfranchisement can be proved. How do you prove that following around Native American voters in South Dakota and writing down their license plates is "disenfranchisement" (though we know it is, really.)

Oddly, the Kerry campaign seems unconcerned. I wonder if Kerry just wants to put the whole thing behind him.

We can put a man on the moon but we can't create a computer system that actually records votes accurately? *thud*

Whatever side of the political aisle you live, you have to be concerned for our democracy right now. If we can't be assured our votes are recorded--if we have no real power to vote--we have no democrary.

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  12:05:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I'm very concerned about the trend, and firmly believe the 2000 FL evidence of vote tampering was overwhelming.

Some of the web info is disturbing, like exit polls more closely matching paper votes than electronic votes. And there was that almost 4,000 extra Bush votes in Ohio where only 600 or so folks voted. But I'm having a bit of trouble with the multiple conspiracies it would have taken to skew Ohio and this year's FL results.

Anyone have any realistic scenarios for serious fraud?
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  13:07:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hmpf. It doesn't matter if the fucker really won or not, he still won. The only hope left is that the media finally grows a set of balls and begins doing the job they are overpaid to do.

I don't know about that. FOX News says "We reported, you decided". Ugh. Are they taking credit?

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2004 :  15:07:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I was disturbed by the news mantra, "I hope Kerry doesn't fight the results, it will be bad for the country." It was played out on all the main stations. Unbelievable having to wait for all the votes to be counted and checked could be bad for the country. Oh dear, we won't know for a few more days, clearly a tragedy. [rolls eyes]
Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/07/2004 15:08:23
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2004 :  20:43:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
I am very concerned that we are losing the ability to double-check the voting with electronic machines. In Fayette County, Kentucky, there is no paper ballot whatever. Once you pull the lever, it is somehow recorded electronically and then no record is made of your actual vote. So it is virtually impossible to cross check the vote. As tedious as paper votes are, I think they are essential in keeping a permanent record of the vote, at least until the election is certified. Unscrupulous people could alter the electronic readouts and throw elections. I'm beginning to think this has already happened several times. There is certainly no way to verify one way or the other. This must be changed!

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2004 :  16:37:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
http://www.votergate.tv/
You all really need to watch this video! This is excellant!

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  11:21:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
I can't believe I just deleted a couple paragraphs by accident! Bummer.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHI411B.html
This is an informative article about this "stolen election" issue.

Friends, we really need to come up with a to do list in order to restore the voting system to a verifiable state. You need to know that the "black box" computer voting systems are not currently verifiable or auditable! Why? No individual ballot is issued after each vote, just a talley of all ballots done electronically. If the machine is screwed up or tampered with, no record of your vote is kept, so no verification can be done. The voting scandal in Florida helped cement the problems with "punch card ballots" and their "hanging chads" in our minds. However, eliminating a paper record of your vote is just plain reckless and dangerous. The possibilities of fraud with electronic voting are huge! Back door program tampering can allow a cheater to change the vote talley by whatever margin they wish. If the margin is outside the "close" margin established by law for an automatic recount, the election will be certified without a verified accounting. Only the talley of voting machines with their totals sent by wire to the main computers is left. The voting machines can be tampered with to show the opposite person getting the vote, every time the opponent is voted for. This has actually happened several times already and has been verified. The talley computers can be tampered with, either by backdoor programming, or those on the machines. Thus, by eliminating the actual "paper ballot" trail, auditing has become impossible.

Imagine you are audited by the IRS (argh, what a horrible thought!) and you have no actual receipts to verify purchases. Wow, are you in trouble! Now consider when a recount is asked for in any district, that all they can do is add up the voting machine tallies, no actual ballots can be recounted...only the totals of those "supposed" ballots. Wow, now that is trouble. Only a superficial auditing can occur, and thus, vote tampering can be hidden.

Of course, there is the old time way of voter fraud, like using dead people's names on registration cards and such, or throwing out ballots and changing ballots. However, these methods leave a big trail that can be discovered and the amount of votes that can be affected is limited. With computer tampering, however, one can add or delete or simply change the numbers however you want. Millions of votes can be affected!

What to do? Let's brainstorm: 1. contact our state or commonwealth secretary to find out the laws related to voting ballots. 2. Contact local state representatives and senators about what can be done to change the voting laws to incorporate safeguards into the system, meaning a printed, verifiable ballot that you and the counters can read and sign some how, without making your vote public knowledge. 3. Encourage neighbors and friends to contact their reps about this. 4. Publish letters to editor regarding this subject. 5. Publish in Blogs or other forums regarding this matter.
Any other ideas?

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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