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 here we go again, new phantom GOP votes/ohio
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  11:55:54  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041105/D865R1DO0.html

Disturbing to say the least.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  14:03:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
Now they admit there are glitches and bugs? Way to go, we are now a third world nation as far as voting goes.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  16:19:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
Errors happen, even with computers. Apparently, those errors are reported, as should be, and would be discovered in the official count. From the article, the number of votes represented by the few errors are not enough to cheat Bush of the election after the fact.

Face it, the majority of the USA wanted Bush, or at least the majority of voting USA wanted Bush. He won the representative vote AND the majority vote. Every counted vote has to, and is (as far as I can tell from the report) checked for errors. There is no reason to go shouting 'murder' before the final checks have been made, although the counting should be monitored to see whether they are done well.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  18:26:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
I don't want to appear like a conspiracy nut, but...
Who is doing the de-bugging?
The best man to debug a software is the original programmer, as he would be the guy with the most intimate knowledge of the program. So how are we to know the difference between a real bug and a Trojan planted there by the programmer? (or whatever a malign piece of programming code is called...)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26016 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  19:33:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Out of curiosity, what would happen if ten bazillion recounts determine that Kerry actually won? A friend tells me that despite what the citizenry votes for, a concession is a concession. If so, why would one ever concede? Is there some sort of palbable harm that get done by saying, "no, I think we'll wait until the electoral college meets in December?"

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  20:33:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Out of curiosity, what would happen if ten bazillion recounts determine that Kerry actually won? A friend tells me that despite what the citizenry votes for, a concession is a concession. If so, why would one ever concede? Is there some sort of palbable harm that get done by saying, "no, I think we'll wait until the electoral college meets in December?"


No, I read a Slate article specifically mentioning this. A concession is considered a courtesy and is not legally binding. Vote tallies are.

If in the course of the vote count (or a recount) Kerry earns enough electoral college votes, he would be the next president.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/05/2004 20:35:14
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26016 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  20:43:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Thanks, H. But this still brings up the second part of my question: why would anyone ever concede prior to the electoral college actually voting? My buddy also claims that one electoral college delegate, in protest of something, back in 2000 refused to vote as the people wanted her to, and voted (in the college) for Bush. Not that her demonstration changed anything, but doesn't it suggest that the actual candidates should keep quiet until mid-December, at least?

But, people have been painting Kerry's delay of umpty-ump hours as hostile, and Gore's 36 days in 2000 as tearing the country apart. WTF? Is it just the instant-gratification world we've gotten used to? I mean, 200 years ago, people had to wait.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  22:07:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
We should start perparing for the next election now...

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend

United Kingdom
53 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  00:41:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dominic_dice a Private Message
What's wrong with paper ballots anyway? They seem way way safer. As far as I know we don't have any problems with them (apart from taking longer to count I guess).

"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now"
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  05:57:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Thanks, H. But this still brings up the second part of my question: why would anyone ever concede prior to the electoral college actually voting? My buddy also claims that one electoral college delegate, in protest of something, back in 2000 refused to vote as the people wanted her to, and voted (in the college) for Bush. Not that her demonstration changed anything, but doesn't it suggest that the actual candidates should keep quiet until mid-December, at least?

But, people have been painting Kerry's delay of umpty-ump hours as hostile, and Gore's 36 days in 2000 as tearing the country apart. WTF? Is it just the instant-gratification world we've gotten used to? I mean, 200 years ago, people had to wait.



I blaim current technology. People do not want to wait anymore, and get cranky if they have to. Patience is a virtue commonly lost nowadays.

Why would anyone concede before mid-december. I think it just shows good sportsmanship to concede when you see that the race is lost. Although I agree that this is a bit hard in the USA, since in fact you are just conceding when the race is probably lost. I think it has to do with the feeling people want to have that it is now all over and we can get back to business again, in stead of being left without a satisfying answer. Might be better for the economy (for example), since people would be more confident.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  08:00:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dominic_dice

What's wrong with paper ballots anyway? They seem way way safer. As far as I know we don't have any problems with them (apart from taking longer to count I guess).


I can't speak for US, but I can speak for Brazil. Since we've changed from the paper to the computer (simple stuff, standarized), it's been easier, clearner and never had any problem (well, not after the 1st election with them). Considering voting is compulsory here, it also made our lives a lot easier.

Bugs do happen, though.

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

... The best man to debug a software is the original programmer, as he would be the guy with the most intimate knowledge of the program...

Generally it isn't just one programmer, but a group of programmers. The thing wouldn't be a Trojan, anyway, if it was within the software's code. It'd be just a flaw, whether intentional or not. Another programmer or group, possibly, could verify if the code was 'honest' or not.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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