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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2002 : 09:26:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Come to think of it, I don't understand this preoccupation with intelligent life, either.
Maybe, we should hope to find 'unintelligent' life first. Perhaps, we should learn to walk before we run?
We look for itelligent life out there because our search for intelligent life on earth came up mostly empty. 
But seriously searching for signs of selfawarness and intelligence in an object is far more interesting then searching for sings of life for many reasons. For one thing we have problems defieing what constitues life.
At the current rate we are going we might be able to create an Artificial Inteligence with the help of computers that by most defintions would be intelligent but not alive. And that is just stuff that we come up with on our own. Whatever might be out there could be beyond our wildest dreams.
To Slater:
There might be many forms of intelligence out there, but there is only one kind of logic. If they use logic it will be the same we use. Their perspective and worldview might be completly 'alien' from us, but the logic will be the same.
The aliens could be sentinet metereological patterns but 1+1 would still equal 2.
The likehood of inventing selfawarness as an adaption would appear small if we looked just at our own evelutionary history. It happend on earth by accident and does not at all seem inevitable or even likely. But for our type of life it can represent an unimaginable advantage. In many cases some sort of life might evolve without ever throught its existance chancing upon selfawareness. But those few cases that do will have the chance of really leaving their mark on the universe.
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 09:48:52 [Permalink]
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I was unable to find a choice that fit my answer.
Humans exist. I've read a marine biologist who was repeatedly astounded by the cleverness of octopi; and a life-long naturalist who studied American Brown Bears and who began to suspect that some of them might be "smarter" than he was. Many sea mammals are suspected of having high levels of intelligence. I've just read a scientific article about ants who maintain underground fungal gardens.
One instance is enough for me; several supporting instances clinch the case: I am highly skeptical of those who claim that humans, and only humans, are the sole intelligence in the Universe. (I'druther believe in a 6,000-year-old Creation.  )
I look at the broad range of intelligent or quasi-intelligent species right here on Earth and I become seriously skeptical (--but not "highly skeptical"--) of those who claim that hydrocarbons, and only hydrocarbons, can support intelligent life.
To say either of the above (--no intelligent life but us humans; no life at all except that based on hydrocarbons within liquid water temperature range--) is, to me, an article of faith; and I, for one, tend to be skeptical of things that are purely faith-based.
I am, therefore, somewhat skeptical of those who claim that Earth, and only Earth, can support [intelligent] life in the Solar System. It may be true;--but I am skeptical of the motives of those who preach it as dogma.
Need more choices. 
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 17:39:59 [Permalink]
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You use different definition of intelligent here then the one we are looking for. Yes some animals may appear smart judging by their instinctual behaviour, but that is not the sort of intelligence we are looking for. What we seek out there is selfawareness. On our planet only humans really have it. Some of our closest relatives come close but none of them crosses the line.
Intelligent life in this solar system is a fiction that has been dead for generations. No Lunarians, no Martians or Venusians have been found. If there was any form of intelligence in our own solarsytem besides our own we would have found it by now.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 17:53:37 [Permalink]
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Self-awareness? I'm not so sure. First, if we accept some of the ideas of Julian Jaynes, consciousness and self-awareness are recent developments in human psychology and are not actually necessary for thinking. (See: "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind")
On the other side of the coin, I'm not so sure that "animals" lack "self-awareness". Intelligence without self-awareness may be possible and on the flip side, self-awareness in some animals may also be possible. I think I have actually observed it.
Then there is my cat, who certainly has me trained.
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 08:52:29 [Permalink]
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A number of years ago the Planetary Society ran an article suggesting that leading scientists involved in the physical sciences were more likely to view ET as likely, while those focused on the life sciences tended to be far more skeptical.
My best guess is that life is ubiquitous, but intelligent life exceedingly rare. I've always found the following debate between Mayr and Sagan to be very interesting -- http://www.planetary.org/html/UPDATES/seti/Contact/debate/default.html -- and tend to side with Mayr. I suspect, by the way, that a presumption that evolution equals progress plays some role on the pro-ET side.
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2002 : 13:44:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
A quote by Lars_H:
"Intelligent life in this solar system is a fiction that has been dead for generations. No Lunarians, no Martians or Venusians have been found. If there was any form of intelligence in our own solarsytem besides our own we would have found it by now."
I sort of like the view they [pretend to] have in Missouri: Show me!
No Lunarians? We've just barely set foot on the surface,--and hardly know anything about the other side of the Moon.
No Martians? No Venusians? We haven't even been to either place except with some really low-level, crude robotic-probes. (Anyone who has real "intelligence" could easily fool/trick such a low-level probe.  )
While I didn't profess belief in Lunarians, Martians, or Venusians, (--or Ioans, Titanians, or Tritonians--), I'm highly skeptical of anyone who professes disbelief as a kind of article of faith.
"Show me!" the empty deserts or baren rocks and then I'll join you, Lars_H, in your disbelief.
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2002 : 05:03:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
While I didn't profess belief in Lunarians, Martians, or Venusians, (--or Ioans, Titanians, or Tritonians--), I'm highly skeptical of anyone who professes disbelief as a kind of article of faith.
There is a logic fallacy termed "Argumentum ad ignorantiam" of which this is a fairly common example. The problem with this brand of "skepticism" is that it enables every form of superstition and New Age pablum imaginable. If no Lunarians, maybe Martians. If no Nessie in the loch, maybe Yeti in the forest. If no Great Purple Unicorn in my back yard, then maybe in the one next door. If crystal power didn't cure her cancer, maybe his will be cured by a different crystal. Once you 'open yourself to the possibilities', you become a garbage bin for pseudo-science.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2002 : 08:48:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes some animals may appear smart judging by their instinctual behaviour, but that is not the sort of intelligence we are looking for. What we seek out there is selfawareness. On our planet only humans really have it. Some of our closest relatives come close but none of them crosses the line.
Lars, because of projects that my wife has worked on during the past few years I've become way too involved in the field of interspecies communication. It's at the point now where I am seriously considering selling my share of my "business" and my house and moving to Maui next year when the ape communication center is finally built (right now we're helping with their fund raising).
I now believe that this supposed lack of self-awareness in animals is a myth we scientists tell ourselves so that we can do dreadful things to them with a clear conscience.
I have personally had conversations with an Atlantic bottle nosed dolphin, a gorilla, a bonobo, and a western chimp. I have also been witness to conversations with an eastern chimp and an orangutan. Admittedly a lot of these conversations smack of the movie "Being There" (a severely retarded man played by Peter Sellers is mistaken for a genius, with all his listeners placing their own spin on his words) but there is no denying that all of these creatures were highly self-aware.
You've undoubtedly seen some of these animals on TV and as cool as that might be it's a completely different experience from the give and take of actual conversation.
You try very hard not to project when working with critters, not to anthropormorphise. Anecdotal evidence is really no evidence at all. But I can't shake the feeling that we have tried so hard to be objective that we've actually lost our objectivity.
It's impossible for me to still think of gorillas as " instinctual" when one has told me that I would be 'more big pretty' if I wore blue clothes and red shoes.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 05/06/2002 08:53:26 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2002 : 11:17:43 [Permalink]
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There's a rather chilling story in (I think) one of Carl Sagan's books where a researcher who had worked in chimpanzee communication returned to the facility years later and recognized two old chimps. The place no long had the animal communication research and was now devoted to medical testing. He approached them and just for fun, signed something like: "How are you?" One chimp simply pointed to the locked cage door, while the other signed back: "key."
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 04:03:15 [Permalink]
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Chippewa--I really like that story. Couldn't you remember precisely where you found it? Or, would anyone else know?
Thanks
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 06:26:24 [Permalink]
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Do you have any links for web resources on that topic, Slater?
I find it so hard to discover serious researches on this subject among all the pesudoscientist, that I have kind of given up on the whole "interspecies communication" thing.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 08:58:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you have any links for web resources on that topic,
The hard science isn't posted on the web. You have to remember that the web is "just out there" and isn't "peer reviewed" in a strict sense of the term. On the web you get cute pictures and requests for donations and tee shirts/ tote bag offers.
Discussions about the animals "self awareness" I can't remember ever seeing in print. They usually occur over beer.
It's a funny field. The main intrest in communicating with apes is to learn about the evolution of the human brain. But that is never ever mentioned in public because our Xian friends would protest and jeopardize funding.
You might take a peek at www.koko.org they have "streaming video". Little or no science but the archive of "daily photos" is always fun. They had one up yesterday (I think) that had Koko wearing a lei on top of her head and admireing her beauty in a hand mirror. That young lady is very self aware as can be seen by her use of makeup.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 09:44:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Chippewa--I really like that story. Couldn't you remember precisely where you found it? Or, would anyone else know?
Thanks
Tim,
I did some research. The book is: "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors : A Search for Who We Are" by Carl Sagan, Ann Druyan.
And both chimps signed key back.
Chippewa
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 12:37:50 [Permalink]
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Chip--I had trouble sleeping last night thanks to your grimly chilling story.
As I thought about it, I had to try to "look at all sides"--as in, from the Chimps viewpoint.
There I was, locked in a prison for years, being subjected to "medical testing" (--would "torture in the name of medical advancement" get me into too much trouble?).
When, Lo!, who should walk in but an old human friend/co-worker signing "Que pasa?"--"How goes it?" or, as some say, "What's happening?"
I and my co-Chimp sign back: "Key, please! Open the door and help us escape." Our old human friend and co-worker . . . . 
I don't know the end of that story but it left me feeling very depressed about my own species: Humanity. 
Thanks for Sagan's story, tho,--and the reference.
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 13:20:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know the end of that story but it left me feeling very depressed about my own species: Humanity.
I suppose this topic isn't really getting that far off the subject. Alien Intelligence, only not from off the planet.
Computer Org what is it that you find so depressing about humanity in this instance?
One of the debates in interspecies communication revolves around our learning very little of the ape language (and yes they have what could technically be called simple language and there are any number of people who speak it) and even less dolphin. When the animals learn to speak to us (and they absoultely have to at a very early age or it just doesn't work) it changes them. 'Schrondingers chimp' some wag called it.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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