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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:42:28 [Permalink]
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Why are these claims Extraordinary? I think I asked this before and still got no reply? Look at what I wrote. Read the posts on reading minds, telepathic thought, etc.
What evidence could I possibly have that will satsfy you?
so the other day I was doing my makeup int he mirror in our bathroom. I came in the door slipped off my slippers and began to apply my makeup. My cat Starr came in the door to my right and proceeded to watch me do my makeup. I turned to her and Acknowledged her with a loving pat on her head and she returned it by rubbing against my hand. I returned to doing my makeup she remained watching.
Then in a moment she began to hiss upon looking at I noticed her in a crouched position walking back out of the door. What is it I said?
But she looked beyond me and then...
My slipper hits her straight in the head and she goes running...
I turned as quick as I could to see where my slippers were...
One left where I left it...
it was clear to me that something threw it...
Was it my mind, I have contemplated that for a long time and have come to the conclusion that it was not well maybe not...
Was it a ghost... Could be Could be many things
It was not an illusion though...
It was real
If you don't believe me ask my cat...
That's if you skeptics speak cat....
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Storm |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 03:12:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why are these claims Extraordinary? I think I asked this before and still got no reply?
Because the claims ares that some things never "proven", despite many attempts actually exists. quote:
What evidence could I possibly have that will satsfy you?
Adequate studies. Double blind tests. A single case proven within reasonable doubt. quote:
so the other day I was doing my makeup int he mirror in our bathroom. I came in the door slipped off my slippers and began to apply my makeup. My cat Starr came in the door to my right and proceeded to watch me do my makeup. I turned to her and Acknowledged her with a loving pat on her head and she returned it by rubbing against my hand. I returned to doing my makeup she remained watching.
Then in a moment she began to hiss upon looking at I noticed her in a crouched position walking back out of the door. What is it I said?
But she looked beyond me and then...
My slipper hits her straight in the head and she goes running...
I turned as quick as I could to see where my slippers were...
One left where I left it...
it was clear to me that something threw it...
Was it my mind, I have contemplated that for a long time and have come to the conclusion that it was not well maybe not...
Was it a ghost... Could be Could be many things
It was not an illusion though...
It was real
If you don't believe me ask my cat...
That's if you skeptics speak cat....
This is a good story, but (I don't want to offend you in any way) this is not good evidence.
We don't know you enough to evaluate you as a witness and your only potential corroborating witness is a cat.
I don't want to claim that you are insane or lying, but I'm afraid that those are possible explanations. You could also have a vivid imagination, been tired and misremembered the situation or maybe you have a cat hating leprechaun.
It is impossible to draw any conclusions from your story. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 18:43:06 [Permalink]
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Okay, I found some evidence to support Storm's contention. From a news story about the "Ancient Ways: A Gathering of Spirituality and Magick" held recently:
quote:
David Yaeger, 55, of Crystal Lake, sells figurines of slender fairies wrapped in diaphanous gowns. He said one strange incident convinced him that the creatures--said to be angels who gave up their places in heaven to mind things on Earth--were real.
He collects turkey feathers, keeping three of them in a vase upon a tall armoire. He and his fiance returned home one day to find their cat seated on the couch, one feather perfectly placed on three sides of the animal. The vase, still atop the armoire, appeared undisturbed.
"That couldn't have happened on its own," Yaeger said, ascribing it to the mischief of playful fairies. "From then on, we've pretty much said, `There have got to be fairies about.'"
What more proof do you people need? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 15:10:24 [Permalink]
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So is anybody going to say anything about the experience I had written about in the other post? What do you think?
Which came first the Evidence or the Claim?
We do not think that Einstein Just came up with Evidence then made the claim do we?
We are still at the Claim phase of the Paranormal.
We know the phenomenon exists as to what it is we do not yet fully understand.
But Do not be fooled We as Scientist understand much about the paranormal just not fully |
Storm |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 15:20:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
But Do not be fooled We as Scientist understand much about the paranormal just not fully
Ok. I'm willing to be objective. Can you list point by point the facts we do know and how we know them. You can be brief, just bullet points with explanations. I think we should go through these facts one by one.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/02/2004 15:20:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 21:26:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
So is anybody going to say anything about the experience I had written about in the other post? What do you think?
Very little. It's unrepeatable, and untestable. It's a story.quote:
Which came first the Evidence or the Claim?
We do not think that Einstein Just came up with Evidence then made the claim do we?
We are still at the Claim phase of the Paranormal.
Okay, you certainly are unfamiliar with the methods of science. Science begins with observations (evidence) and the claims made are explanations of those observations.
So yes, Einstein began with evidence, and came up with an explanation of it.
Being at the "claim phase of the paranormal" is putting the cart before the horse.quote:
We know the phenomenon exists as to what it is we do not yet fully understand.
Define the phenomenon for us, if you please.quote:
But Do not be fooled We as Scientist understand much about the paranormal just not fully
Name one thing you understand about the paranormal, please. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 22:00:47 [Permalink]
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You are absolutely right ? I might not know much about Science but it probably as much as you know about the paranormal. So let me then rephrase it...
We are then at the evidence stage of The Paranormal, For the Evidence of many Paranoraml Experiences including PSI are well documented . .. Read the Articles I suggested.
Phenomenon Documented
PSI
EVP
Ghostly Pictures
Anomalistic - Roger Wescott alleged that Anomalistic is Extraordinary events that cannot be explained by current accredited Scienticic Thinking
You cannot possibly go through the evidence in 2 minutes. If you are serious about the subject then you will take the time .
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Storm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 22:50:20 [Permalink]
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Storm wrote:quote:
You are absolutely right ? I might not know much about Science but it probably as much as you know about the paranormal.
Well, there's the problem, then. Since people are making claims about science with regard to the paranormal (such as doing scientific tests which 'prove' the paranormal exists), then you've made your decisions about the evidence in ignorance of how that evidence should be gathered and examined. To claim, as you have, that the evidence is "well documented" after admitting you know little about science (and therefore how evidence should be documented) is nothing but an empty assertion of fact which you are not equipped to evaluate. Your hubris is incredible.quote:
If you are serious about the subject then you will take the time .
If you are serious about convincing me of anything, you'll take the time to lay out the evidence, instead of expecting us to do the work you've already done.
But beyond that, you're making poor assumptions when you guess that I (or anyone else here) have little knowledge of the paranormal. I wasn't always a skeptic, but you didn't bother to ask about that, did you? No, you just assumed that anyone who disagreed with you was arguing out of ignorance of the subject. Well, pbbbbbbbbbbbbt on that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 06:23:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
We know the phenomenon exists as to what it is we do not yet fully understand.
Who are we? Which phenomenon?quote:
But Do not be fooled We as Scientist understand much about the paranormal just not fully
This is a stupid line. Your not a scientist. You do not understand what is known by science on this subject.quote:
For the Evidence of many Paranoraml Experiences including PSI are well documented . .. Read the Articles I suggested.
If you would just tell us which evidence.
Trust me, I have nothing against references, but if you are unable to even specify what the evidence are any articles suggestions from you are uninteresting.
"Look it up!" is not evidence.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 06:38:00 [Permalink]
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^ exactly what he said(dave), this is the problem we have with creationist scientists. They go around making claims about the validity of various evolutionary subjects, when in fact they are engineers and have absolutelty no training in Evolutionary Studies.
Proper evidence in your case would require the following, to prove it scientificly. (feel free to add on guys)
1) Cameras covering your entire home, (good high frame rate, high def recordings)
2) Reasearchers who dont know you and have absolutely nothing to gain by seeing the experiment succeed or fail. (Like writing one of those books you've been reading).
3) You must be out of the area, as you are the only one to perceive it and you may be the cause either knowingly or not.
4) A full examination of the objects in your home, to determine if they have been tampered with or set up to give a response.
5) A thurough sweep of possible outside influences, such as drafts from chimineys or mice or kenyan blood sucking cockroaches etc.
quote:
If you are serious about convincing me of anything, you'll take the time to lay out the evidence, instead of expecting us to do the work you've already done.
This says it all, why are we doing the legwork?
Since the story you gave was less than stellar in the details ill give you a possible explination, not involving lapses in the mind.
Cat claws at slippers, gets thread cought in claws, moves quickly, sees slipper move, scowls, moves again, slipper jumps, you see it, assume ghosts for some reason even though no ghosts have ever been proven to exists, anywhere.
The people who are writing those books are not scientists, they take measurements they dont understand and then they attribute the evidence to other things they dont understand. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 12/03/2004 06:39:19 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 07:50:18 [Permalink]
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I never said what moved my slipper was a Ghost. I might not know that much about science but I know a good amount. While I am willing to learn even more you my friends take 5 minutes to look at some websites I give you.
You are not the only one doing legwork.
But doesn't it feel better to do some than just rather have it handed to you on a silver platter??
Excellant Advice Papa Smurf i did not know all this Scientific Method? Not
People who write lots of these books are Scientists. Do you know that to even be in the Parapsychology field you have to have a psychology degree?
How do you know that I am not a ScientistI have earned my degrees
Buisness Management
Sociology
Currently working on a Psychology degree
Everything is Science if we label it that.
It's all in a name...
Roger Wescott termed the name Anomalistic Alleged extraordinary events that cannot be unexplained by current Scientific theory...
this could definetly be applied to Gosts
But PSI Telepathy Very credable Evidence can be supported in many of the parapsychology journals
You have to look
The fact is Gentleman The Events occur
How we label them Well that is up to us I guess
You say Tomato I say Toe mato...
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Storm |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 09:35:15 [Permalink]
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Storm said
quote:
Why are these claims Extraordinary? I think I asked this before and still got no reply?.
You then went on to say that your slipper flew through the air and hit your cat.
Here is why that is extrodinary:
Bodies at rest remain at rest unless acted upon by a force.
So a plane flying through the air makes 'sense' because engines propel the plane forward and the air flow over the wings provides lift. A rocket flying into the air is not extrodinary because the force of the rocket engine exceeds the force of gravity.
an object thrown by someone also is not unusual.
There is no known mechanism that will allow a slipper to fly through the air with no force acting on it. Some possible sources of force are:
1. Wind - did you notice a 50 or 60 mph wind in your bathroom? (just kidding )
2. Electrical discharge. To make a slipper fly through the air we are talking about hundreds of thousands of volts (or hundreds or amps) at any rate there would have been an explosive crackel of electricity.
3. Explosion - again you would have heard the explosion.
4. Someone tossed the slipper.
If you say there was some unmeasurable force that did it, then that is an extrodinary claim. How can a force that has a profound effect on matter be unmeasurable.
If you say it was a ghost that is also extrodinary because there is no evidence of ghosts. Just because someone hears something go bump in the night that does not mean it is a ghost. I don't care about anecdotal stories about things people think they seen. People see all kinds of 'things', UFOs, Bigfoot, Visons, heck some people have even seen a 'little man'.
The bottom line is that it is a supernatural event for an object to fly through the air with no detectable force acting. Supernatural is be definition beyond science and extrodinary.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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